Snowolf

Interesting idea. I will keep that in mind. Something I tend to do to help people on the steeps when they are going down their first black diamond run is to make them quit obsessing about the steepness of the rune. I explain that they are`nt going that way, they are going to make a lot of traverses across that run. I have them pick out a tree or other feature at the side of the run and steer towards it at a gentle angle. Once they make it all the way down a Black or a Double Black they have totally overcome their fear and then they will start trying to make turns and let the board find the fall line more often. It is a case of getting them to NOT see the forest for the trees.

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daysailer1

At the time I was unaware that she had never been down a black run before and was the weakest rider of the group. I was hanging out with a bunch of instructors from my old ski area. 2nd run of the day and the Cert 3 leads us to an open bowl cirque that started with a steep pitch. She didn't verbalize any fear but upon reflection, her body language was screaming fear. She was so locked up. I did know that she had failed her Cert 1 exams a year ago but I didn't know this included steeps. I always do the tree/traverse on the side of the trail in my never evers for the exact same reasons you do. I didn't think about that here. She was using her lower body for turn initiation and rotation (for the most part), her upper body alignments were way off. On her toe-side she would do the classic have her front shoulder almost over her heelside edge of her board throwing her weight off. Opposite on the heelside. Upper body rotation was happening in the control and finish phase of the turn with over rotation. I have feeling this is why she failed her exams though she also had limited flexion and extension too. I choose to work on the upper body alignments first with this progression and try to get more weight on the engaged edge. The alignments started to happen, the upper body rotation diminished, and she later admitted that the progression took away her fear focus on the steep terrain and that she did unlock her knees and was absorbing the crud. She also picked up without any hint by me that this would help her switch- I started laughing at that point and told her that was the first thing I said to the trainer once he showed us this. (I saw many a co-worker practicing this after this clinic.) At the bottom of the grade we stopped and talked. She couldn't believe what she just went down. It was a real confidence booster.

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Snowolf

It is amazing how subtle body movements make such huge differences in riding. Practicing MA while riding the chairlift, one thing I see that I think is the most common is this riding counter rotated. I see many people riding down the mountain with the upper body twisted around to face forward. It is so common. Many really decent riders still do this and it is their athletic ability that allows them to overcome this bad habit, but their riding would be so much more efficient if they kept the shoulders aligned with the board. Another thing I see all the time is the back hand waving out in front instead of quiet and over the tail of the board.

I was doing this to some extent; not on gentle terrain, but when initiating a toe turn on the steeps. As you know this is counter productive as it again, counter rotates the shoulders and makes you fight against yourself when you need to make an aggressive toeside turn on very steep terrain. My theory about this at least from self analyzing, is that we develop this habit in the early days of our riding because we would often fall learning to turn toeside and would position that hand out in front to catch ourselves. At least that is why I think I picked that bad habit up.

Counter rotation will really rear it`s ugly head when doing straight airs off jumps! I so struggled with this at first. The second I was airborne, I would rotate to face forward and naturally the board would also rotate in the air. I kept landing in a sideslip position and would fall on my ass every time. It also becomes evident when 50/50 down a box. I have been doing boxes a lot lately mainly as an exercise to correct this more. As you know, when on a box, pivot is your only steering and unwanted pivot does terrible things to you on a box.... I am now where I can stat pretty much dead on straight down our 35 foot box and stay centered all the way down and off the end. I am not a huge fan of rails and boxes but they really do teach (through the school of hard knocks..) to be perfectly precise in your stance. My shins have paid the price more than once for being too far over the toe edge and being too far back and having the board slip out in front and slamming your ass down onto the box is just a wonderfully feeling....

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daysailer1

Amen!

I've had many discussions with various instructors, trainers, and examiners on this topic. It is so common and so painful for me to watch. Consensus opinion is about 95% of riders do this. They are using upper body rotation to turn the board. It is so inefficient. It works but does take alot of energy. Usually people learn this from friends who try to teach them snowboarding. They don't realize this is rookie riding technique. If not addressed quickly early on, it can be carried on for years. I know, I did this hideous technique too many years. It was the first thing of my riding that got torn apart 6-8 years ago. I got very defensive about it and had to get some instructors out at Snowmass to beat it out of me. To my own defense , when I learned they didn't know how to teach snowboarding and the equipment then was so hideous it actually required rear foot kick steering. Ever seen a Burton Cruise? Try riding it with Sorels.

I try to teach never-evers correct technique from moment one and get them to understand why upper body rotation is a bad habit in most riding. It always comes up when teaching J-turns. People try swinging their arms around, paddle their hands, and everything in between. If I see several people doing it, I'll gather the class and give a little more detail on how we steer our board. First thing I'll have someone stand on their board and swing their arms side to side windmill fashion. I'll tell everyone to look down at the board after a few swings and see what's happening. The board is always rotating. I explain that the arm swinging is being transmitted down to the board. Many light bulbs at this point. I go further and explain that more efficient board steering is done from the waist down using a combo of hips, knees, and ankles. That the closer we can make the turning movement to the board, the easier and more efficient it is. Usually all light bulbs are on then and very little to no arm flailing. We work together to get those knee/ankle alignments and movements to achieve lower body rotation.

For people who have been riding awhile or still learning, I've been trying to get progressions to get rid of this and to understand all the dynamics of upper body rotation. Bart gave the best clinic ever on this in March to the Cert 2 candidate crowd. He wanted us to get the mechanics our students were doing. He made us lock up various body parts and joints in order for us to try to recreate students habits. He wanted to make us understand if you are going to try to take away some habit from a student, you are going to have to give them something to replace it (and not just tell them to bend a knee, etc). Seems the main joint that people lock up is the front ankle. It was the only way I could totally recreate the massive arm swinging that I see people do. I look for it from the lift now. If I see arm swinging, I usually see a locked front ankle too. I've gotten a few corrective progressions for this but I still want more. Earl Saline wrote a great article on this if you haven't already read it. It's on the PSIA-PNW website. Bend Your Knees This article was a revelation for me. I feel extremely privileged to have had Earl as a manager and a clinician. I'm afraid I'm in awe of our trainers too.

Terrain that puts you outside your comfort zone always makes the bad habits rear their ugly head. That's when I get the chopping rear arm motion in the big moguls on the toe-side turn. I'm still learning boxes and jumps but pivot issues haven't been an problem for me. Not sure why but suspect several things - improved stance and balance.

One thing that helped was getting rid of the Flow bindings I had. In my prep clinic Earl let me make it pretty clear to myself why I was having such a tough time initiating toe-side turns in big moguls. Equipment limitations can be an issue. Tony Macri (a RM Level III examiner) will bring this up to any instructor he sees riding with Flows and will let them know they need to get rid of them.

Addendum
I happened to think we might be talking about two things here too. It's one way to dig a hole in an exam too so we have been told to avoid certain terminology. Countered stance and counter-rotation.

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Snowolf

That is interesting and I am going to read that article. I like the method used for pointing out with the never evers about pivot. I demonstrate this in a similar way. When we are all doing our ground maneuver work with skating and one footed glides and turns, I point out the 3 ways a snowboard turns, 1 being pivot and I have them do that windmill thing. 2 of course is tilt and demonstrate how the sidecut turns the board when tilted. Number 3 which is related to 2 is of course twist or torsional flex. This is what I stress from the first one footed glide. In fact when riding one footed, it is damn near the only way to get a turn initiated and that is why I tend to "torture" my students a little longer with these one footed, gliding turns.

The payoff is later in the lesson when I can usually get everyone linking their turns, albeit crudely, but my main goal I try to achieve in the 2 hour first time lesson is to have provided them with all of the knowledge to link turns and demonstrate it. Most are doing it and some are pretty close. Usually I see them later on out there practicing and they doing pretty good. If they understand how this twisting of the board steers it, they can learn the feel of doing it and quickly learn to very precisely steer their board. Also, the one footed riding really helps them with the chairlift!

One thing that drives me nut-so is getting a student for their second lesson and discovering that all they can do is heelside falling leaf. The previous instructor never even demonstrated toeside turns or even went into torsional steering. This drives me nuts and I am thinking who was this instructor???

You mentioned moguls and reverting back to using a lot of upper body and the waving arm. Sure the waving arm is bad form, but it is my understanding that at times, using upper body movements as well as counter rotation when it`s appropriate is not bad form. I find that I use a lot of upper body movements in the moguls. I tend to do "hop turns" by rebounding off the high side of the bump and spinning almost 180 to land in the trough pointed back the other way. It works very well for me, but are you hearing that this is technically not correct? I already use a ton of independent flexion and extension to ride though these monsters, but I kind of "pr wind" as I approach my target for doing a hop or pivot turn.

An example of "proper" counter rotation or I guess counter stance is more accurate is when holding a butter or tail press. Often I employ this on those hideous sticky days in the flat or gentle areas to reduce drag and keep the whole front of the board up. If I don`t counter rotate, I will turn toeside when doing the press. Additionally, when traversing a flat area in "normal" snow or hardpack, I run with a slight toe edge pressure, then deliberately counter rotate my shoulders to add pivotal force favoring the heelside. This cancels out the toeside turning tendency and allows me to ride across the flats in a straight line without letting the board go flat based.

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daysailer1

You are not the only one and supervisors know I am non-negotiable on this. I want to give them the knowledge and muscle memory to make this happen.


Me too but I cut others alot of slack and ask alot of questions to see what they understand. I had two ladies this season who didn't even know how to traverse after a lesson at Keystone. Upon investigation I learned that their lesson had been canceled halfway through due to a massive blizzard/whiteout and they couldn't see anything. I found out what they did cover and understand about their previous lesson and built on that. Also WP is the birthplace of GCT, we are issued this little card with all the good questions to ask. I'm not a morning person so I keep it handy in my uniform pocket for review (depending upon assignment).

You are correct and I should have elaborated. When one is performing dynamic riding in the moguls, a certain amount of counter rotation is going to happen. I asked Earl about the arm chopping and he said it wasn't always necessarily bad. I've watched certain un-named snowboard gods of Vail SS and I've seen plenty of upper-body counter-rotation happening with dynamic mogul riding. If you are doing freestyle moves in the moguls, I think there is going to have to be upper body rotation. For me, when I do the hand chop and realize it, I stop and analyze why I did it. If was due to the terrain or me actually having bad form. It's about 50/50 most of the time. I try to concentrate better and look farther ahead and think more on toe-side turn initiation and cross-under technique.

The most blatant example I can think of where counter-rotation (not countered stance) has to happen is in the half-pipe. Making the heel to toe in the super-pipe happens much easier if you swing the upper body around. I didn't go into the superpipe or any halfpipe until Earl drug our prep clinic into them at Copper in January. Amazingly I didn't fall on my back or look incredibly hideous. Earl remained silent , my fellow clinicians cheered. I haven't met too many 45 year old women who have gone in the superpipe on a snowboard.

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Snowolf

Good on you! I love the super pipe and I get students into it as soon as possible. Too often people get this mental block about the pipe. I have known riders who have ridden years but have never gone into the pipe. They get this mindset that they have to be really good to ride in a pipe. The thing about the pipe is it is up to the rider to decide how far up the wall they want to ride. If people keep hitting the pipe, eventualy, they will be riding farther and farther up the wall. I just got out of our 21 foot super pipe this year. Granted, not by much, but I did clear the coping.... For me, as a regular rider, I am much more comfortable on the left hand wall. I find making the toe side turn back down much more comfortable than riding up the right hand wall and having to spin "blind side" onto my heel side. I always tend to go higher on the left side and that is the side I can air out. I agree that the pipe is an area where upper body rotation, done correctly at at the right time is very beneficial.

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daysailer1

Obviously I've had that block for years. When I've told people I want to learn it (other than instructors) they think I'm absolutely bonkers and need to grow up and be a responsible adult/woman. No support or encouragement there. I had a bunch of kids caution me not to go into the pipe at Steamboat in March "cause I might hurt myself". I'd already been in the pipe at Copper and it's much bigger.

It's pretty intimidating looking at those walls. That, and I've had absolutely no instruction on how to do it. When I told a trainer I didn't have a clue how to ride a pipe, he looked at me in absolute disbelief. He said "it's just like a race course". (I somehow discovered snowboard NASTAR racing and got hooked- I actually placed very high in the women's non-alpine division at Nationals in March). Anyway, that somehow clicked and made sense - the sides are the gates and the edge transition is the same. I can make it about half way up the 21 foot wall. I wig out any higher than that. I'm going to take stunt ditch clinics with Bart next season. From what I can do so far, I think I'm hooked. I need lessons now. I would like to clear the lip someday. For Cert 2 requirements we just have to be able to change edges in the transition.

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Snowolf

Yeah and our examiners actually don`t want to see you go up the vert. Their whole point is examining you on teaching pipe skills to new park riders. What is pissing me off (about myself) is I was doing pretty well in the pipe and then this year learned I was doing things totaly backwards as far as my timing on flexing and extending. I was flexing as entered the tranny. This is a natural reaction to "absorb" the terrain as you climb it. What I learned this year was that in order to maintain constant speed you are fully flexed as you go from the falt into the transition and graudal extend as you climbe the wall reaching maximum extension hopefull at the same time you stall the board on the wall. Then of course, you unweight the board, pulling it up off the wall as you rotate the shoulder to spin and extend to regain cantact with the wall. I had to get rid of my old habit and often in the middle I would just overthink it and sort of do nothing which looked lame. Now that I have re learned the timing, I am getting back to where I was, but now carrying enough speed to go high enough to scare myself as I spin and look at how far down the flats are.

Fortunately, I did all of my pipe training in the super pipe so I avoided the terrible habit of pushing or ollie`ing off the wall like you do in an under-vert pipe. I have seen some nasty falls as a result of this bad habit for superpipes. Nothing like a 21 foot free fall to the flats after pushing off the wall hard. AASI and specifically Mt. Hood Meadows strongly discourages us from instructing in the mini pipe because that is where this ollying off the wall of the pipe habit is formed. It is so much better to teach correct pipe technique in the super pipe, then a person can ride an undervert pipe and do the ollie without developing the potentially dangerous habit.

Like I said, good on you for getting into the pipe, as you no doubt figured out after the first run through it, it`s no big deal and you have total control as to how high you go. I always take my high green and blue classes through the pipe even if I have to arm twist a bit. Without exception everyone of the students is amazed at how straight forward it is and how the intimidation is all in the mind. I love to use the pipe to demonstrate compression turns and how to use the natural terrain to assist you in riding. Half of good riding is knowing how to pick a good line.

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daysailer1

Thanks for posting your experiences. It confirms even more that I need proper lessons. I bought the park and pipe book and have briefly thumbed through some sections. I need to sit down and actually absorb it this summer. I don't believe we have to be able to teach it for our Cert 2 but it's good to cover for ones own riding at this stage. My last hill and probably half the hills in CO don't have pipes of any kind. The superpipes at Copper and WP are well maintained. The one at Steamboat is so-so. Copper and Steamboat are the only places I know that even have mini-pipes.

I can't take any classes into any terrain park at this point. We have to take a in-house certification course and pass for this (probably an insurance thing and guest service thing). I believe I would be severely disciplined or fired if I was caught with a class in there. We have different levels of freestyle training too. There are three different size parks at WP. The largest requires a special pass and everyone has to watch a video before they can buy the pass. Many local semi-pro's use the park so it dosen't get alot of use by the destination visitor. Chris could really rip it in Dark Territory. I believe someone not properly trained in those features could easily hurt themselves or much much worse.

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