Snowjoe

RIGHT!

So anyway I'm CASI certified and it seems as though you guys do things kinda differently to us. I just kinda wanna gain some knowledge into the way you do things because you can never know too much eh! I mean the more you know the better you can help your students if they aren't getting it in one way.

One thing I've noticed is alot of talk about no upper body rotation? Now as we progress through we start at pretty much 100% upper body to turn, using the upper body less and less until you are hardly using it and the lower body is doing 99% of the work. However even at the high performance turns we have an element of the upper body leading into the turn, however small that may be. How do you guys view all this, I mean if I ride all the time with my upper body permanently in line with my board through the turn it feels kinda stiff. Maybe I just got the wrong idea when I read your guys post's, maybe I didn't I dont know lol.

Another thing that I would like to know about is that putting pressure on the front foot to start the turn before the back foot. Is this a way to steer the board or just to initiate the turn? Also do you keep your weight fully centered to do this? I think maybe we do a similar thing in higher end turns as we slightly put more weight downhill when we initiate and slightly in the back seat to complete (very slightly), in a transition throughout the turn and the steering comes from the knees. I find doing that really helpful when the going gets steep!

Finally! How do you teach dead beginners, do you feel everything from AASI is relevant or do you alter some of their stuff for yourself to improve it. I mean when I teach the CASI progression I find theres things in there which are overly complicated and dont really serve a purpose.

Cool, anyway I dont want this to turn into a slagging contest between countries! I'm sure it wont I know everyone here is nice and mature! I guess the more techniques instructors know the more our classes can benefit.

Snowolf

No problem and I agree; it is very good for all of us to compare notes and learn from each other...



In general regarding upper body rotation, What I am referring to mainly is "uncontrolled' rotation or counter rotation. AASI has the position that as you say, the lower body controls the board while the upper body controls balance. Having said that, I tend to promote "assisting" the lower body by ensuring that the upper body is in an ideal "stance" for what you want to do. For example, when initiating a toe side turn, I will promote SLIGHTLY rotating the shoulders to place the leading shoulder over the toe edge of the board and dropping it slightly. This movements creates some pivotal force to the board and it also drives the knee joint in the correct direction and position to weight the toe edge of the board more effectively. With the heelside turn, I stress "looking over your shoulder" to spot where you want to end up. This of course causes a slight rotation of the shoulder favoring a heelside turn and also pulls the front knee in the direction of the intended turn. In the AASI clinics I have participated in, the examiners also promote this. What they really discourage are these wildly flailing upper body movements you often see as well as failing to rotate the upper body in the direction it needs to be (counter rotated). In that, I think both systems are generally in agreement. From day one with never-evers I stress maintaining a quiet upper body and it seems to help the people out.


We call this "Torsional Steering" and yes, it is considered by AASI the "proper" technique to initiate the turn. You use just the front foot to twist the nose of the board to engage the sidecut and begin the turn. Once the turn is well established you follow through with the rear foot so that turn completion is done by the sidecut of the board. This gets people learning the correct movements for carving right from the beginning. I use this technique to steer the board as well. A great excercise is on a flat area, have the students glide one footed and use the front foot to make shallow S turns as they glide by changing the pressure on their edge under their front foot.

As for weight, AASI stresses a centered stance between the bindings. The ideal is to have the image of and upside down letter T. On steeper stuff, the rider is`nt really leaning more down the hill, it just feels that way due to our vestibular sense which makes us want to stand straight up toward the zenith. A slight forward/aft shifting of weight is also promoted for turn initiation and completion especially in dynamic carving. With that said, it is never more than about a 60/40 shift. Again, everything is toned way down. Our main focus on weight shifts is the movement of the hips from heel to toe; this may be what you refer to as steering with the knees. AASI tries to discourage the leaning of the entire upper body to do these weight shifts as that gets the rider way outside the path of their board and causes balance problems as well as loss of edge hold.

I agree completely, I see AASI as more of a guideline than an absolute rule. The key to being an effective instructor is being a good communicator. As long as the outcome remains close to the ideal AASI model for riding, the how is up to the instructor. Often I use analogies that that make sens to the student rather than "technically correct" AASI terms and methods. I think every lesson takes on a life of it`s own and you have to be able to adapt your teaching technique to match the student. I have a goal in every lesson to cover all the key riding tasks for a first time lesson, but depending on snow conditions or student abilities I amend that on the fly. For example, you can forget about teaching a sideslip on an 18 inch deep powder day... One thing that really improves an instructor`s ability to to this is teaching kids. You can`t throw around a bunch of tech terms with these kids. You have to make the lesson a "play time" for them while still giving them technically acurate information and examples to model their riding after.
As a pilot/flight instructor I will often "borrow" aviation terms to help explain snowboarding concepts. These terms are easily understood by most people. A great example of this is helping people correct that over turning thing they do once they finally learn how to initiate a turn. You`ve seen it, they make a great turn across the fall line only to turn up the hill and start spinning an uncontrolled 360 untill they fall. The point I make to get them to understand that they need to "stop turning" earlier is to lead their rollout. I use an example of an airplane in a steep bank as it turns. In order for that airplane to level out of the turn on heading, the pilot has to start leveling the wings BEFORE he reaches his intended compass heading. The same thing applies with a snowboard; there is a lag time between when the rider decides to stop turning and the board responds. In aviation, we call this "staying ahead of the airplane" I tell people to "stay ahead of their snowboard.

That is just an example, I use everday analogies to help people get it. Things related to driving often works when getting people to understand things. It`s all about communicating and getting the student to "get it".

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daysailer1

I think it's good to compare notes too. I've looked briefly at the CASI site trying to figure out the differences but I can't remember why I didn't look deeper. I think maybe that I needed credentials to register on the CASI website.

If we find it confusing, the trainers find it even more complicated. Our school has a mixture of AASI, CASI, BASI, SBINZ, and APSI. They have to train to each system depending upon current location but I think Winter Park is heavily infuenced by SBINZ so I'm actually learning both systems. Our head trainer is actually a dual NZ/Canadian. I actually like the NZ system but apparently it's in a little flux too as to teaching. Our trainer actually took the AASI Cert 3 exams this season just to see the differences and this is a fellow who is near the top of the NZ system. It caused him alot of stress this season.

Just because I don't feel like retyping everything Snowolf mentioned, I'll say I agree with 99.9% of his observations. Also even within AASI's division's there are some differences as to what's stressed. This season I've discovered and have been told by top trainers, examiners, former AASI Demo team members within AASI-Rocky Mountain that one sure way to dig yourself a hole within your examination is to mention the terms "countered-stance" and "counter-rotation" just because they lead to this exact confusion. We all know what they mean, we just don't always use them in the right context - which apparently drives examiners bonkers.

I caused confusion with one of my posts. In non-dynamic riding there shouldn't be any upper body counter-rotation happening. This changes with freestyle and highly dynamic riding. How can we do frontside or backside 180's without it. Or in the half-pipe -look at the counter-rotation these guys have to do to perform some of these tricks. Freetyle is an exception to the rule.

We are given alot of latitude of what we teach and how we present it. Our school however will not allow toe or heel side slipping to be taught in a lesson. My differences are: I don't teach looking over the shoulder. I like to have people pointing their shoulder, hip, nose of board, and where they are looking- all going in the same direction throughout all phases of the turn. I just know how difficult it is to break the looking over the shoulder habit once acquired. We aren't taught that in our division.

I agree with the torsional steering section of Sno's. I also agree with the centered stance; and weight shift thing in dynamic carving. Chris Hargave taught me this technique last season. It really helps but is a very subtle manuver.

I also agree with Sno's transfer for teaching. Each student is different. I try to draw from their current knowledge/sport database. It's amazing how you can transfer golf, dancing, skating, horse riding, and even bodily functions. One sure way I can get women to align correctly over the board on their heelside is to tell them to pretend like they are hovering over a dirty toilet seat. On the toe-side, well, the pee like a guy seems to work. In carving the alignments have been given to me as "hump & dump".

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Snowolf

Oooo! this is a new one to me. What is their reason behind this? I know that AASI in general has shifted their position a bit on linked traverses or "falling leaf" in recent years. I understand this is`nt a "never teach this" policy, but is rather a response to mainly low level instructors setting this as a goal rather than having linking turns as a goal. It seemed too many students became really good all mountain riders......on their heel edge 100% of the time.

I am really curious as to their logic about not teaching sideslips. As part of our never ever class, we generally introduce this as a building block in which to introduce additional riding concepts. I also use the sideslip excercise as a means to get the student aware of controlling edge angle and developing a feel for it.

That is an interesting point about not teaching "looking over the shoulder" I never gave that any thought, but I can see how this can in fact become overdone and form a bad habit. Granted, when I teach that I am also stressing pointing the shoulder and keeping everything in line. I will maybe downplay this aspect a little.

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daysailer1

I had to adjust my teaching progressions when I moved over to Winter Park. If you want to hear all the logic behind this - bring this up with Chris or Earl. It was an enforced rule. It took me half a season to finally come up with progressions that worked. The main logic is as you stated - we want people to control their speed and THEIR DIRECTION in the same lesson. In our never-ever lessons you work alot on the basics which makes it very rare to make it to the turns. Intro to Turns is the name of the next lesson. If it's a very aggressive and athletic group - I can still get them to turns.

My basic formula:

Boot fit - I've seen everything by now
Parts of board
how their bindings work
Edging and what it feels like
stance
skating
skating plus gliding, plus looking ahead not down at board/snow
straight glide to a stop
straight glide with toe-side engagement (press into tongues of boots)
straight glide with heel-side engagement (press into highback)
how to load and unload from chairlift
get on gemini lift and go to Discovery Park
Safety talk
teach toe-side traverse using hips,knees, and ankles. This first traverse I help each student individually with the goal of them getting proper alignment, balancing on toe-side edge, looking ahead, how to stop, how to control speed and direction using the hips/knees/ankles. This takes time but it does work. You must have developed rapport and trust earlier in the lesson for this to work. The student must trust you that you want them to succeed and won't let them fall hard too.
I make everyone go the same traverse no matter whether they are regular or goofy. It helps them understand weight placement and stance in the long run.
Next traverse everyone tries by them-self with coaching
Practice
learn heel-side traverse
practice
Put the pieces together. Top of turn is traverse, bottom of turn is traverse, middle of turn is straight glide with edge change.
Explain/demo turn toe to heelside edge
practice

In Intro to Turns - alot of time is spent on garlands. Garlands are wonderful if taught in the right context. This is mainly to enforce the whole hip, knee, ankle and looking where you are going. Falling leaf traverse can be uses at this point too. Depends upon the student.

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junglecat1971

I was in a freeride snowboard camp in Jackson Hole a few years ago and when they taught me the "torsional steering" technique, I didn't get it and just let the concept slip away. I was changing so many other parts of my riding, that was just something I couldn't get my ahead around. I worked on much of the other things and really improved my riding. This year, I went back to JH again and got a private afternoon lesson and the instructor brought this technique back out again. This time I could really focus on what he meant and it was almost like magic haha. It really smooths out the turn and makes the transition much better. I think my weight transfer felt more natural. Still, it's not an automatic part of my riding yet but when I concentrate on it, I can really see the benefits of the technique. Particularly helpful on steeps and bumps.

daysailer1

Snowjoe,

I found the CASI promo video at http://www.casi-acms.com/videos/CASI_Intro_FULL.wmv

Wow, that is really different than AASI. Is that really how you guys do things in the levels? I'm not trying to criticize or demean your methods. That methodology would not be allowed in my school.

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Snowjoe

I've always thought CASI did things a little differently than the others, you could always see a difference between the NZ guys and us, never seen someone from the AASI system though as Canada is CASI dominated (obviously). Our ski school doesn't have rules of how you teach so to speak, they have guidelines of where the client should be at but how you get them to there is up to you.

I get the impression that we maybe have more movement going on than other countries, however after going through it all myself I'm confident when teaching it that the techniques do work. Also the riding in those videos is exaggerated alot, I only tend to ride completely textbook CASI when I'm demoing to a class, as they will obviously not make their movements as big as they see you do them, so by really exaggerating it might get them close to the right place.

Those descriptions of the different levels on the video weren't too great either, doesn't really give a good example of the level you need to be at, but thats not really important.

I would love to do qualifications in other countries, just to get a really sound idea of what is going on in other places.

Oh and thanks to all your replies, it does build a better picture of what you guys are up to, I really want to try out your pedal approach when I get to ride again, shame I have to wait till November

Snowolf

I am surprised at how much difference there seems to be between where you instruct and here at Mt. hood Meadows. It is interesting to see all the differences even within the same divisions. I was really surprised that you are not allowed to teach the sideslip. If you check out the lesson on video sticky`d up at the top, this is the standard flow we use for all never ever lessons. Granted, I had to abbreviate it for the video, but the order of progression and the tasks are what the PNW division recommends.

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daysailer1

Glad to know those movements were exaggerated and the descriptions a bit off. I suspected they were but just wanted to confirm. Your techniques do work. It seems that the NZ/AASI are more similar.

I used to teach the side slip at my old mountain. It's kinda ironic that the two guys who told "no more side-slip" came out of the PNW. It was Chris that showed me Winter Park's recommended progressions during new hire orientation. We could adjust progressions to make them our own, but no side-slip. Chris went straight from one footed straight glides with toe/heel engagement to performing traverses with both feet in. Nothing in between. He most definitely made it clear he didn't want to see any side-slipping. My supervisor a few years ago got called aside after he was observed using side-slipping. I've known others to be warned not to do this too.

What I do after the back foot out exercises and the start of both feet in is really a hybrid of sorts. It's a traverse but I'm getting them to do more garland type movements. It's putting the torsional twist in there with the hip/knee/ankle but I don't always mention it. It depends upon the group that I have. They are having a massive amount of material to digest at this point. I'll throw in this info in freeride practice.

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