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post #11 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 10:25 AM
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The reason is that your feet are closer to the board and snow so movements like flexing or extending your ankles will cause the board to make contact with the snow quicker then an upper body movement(Much more effeceint and effective). You still want your shoulders to be making the movement in the same direction as you are turning unless the riding task(i.e. doing a basic turn, popping a 180, etc.) calls for a different movement.

It probably isn't so much that they have moved away from teaching upper body as the emphasis and how they talk about it has changed.

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post #12 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryHugo View Post
x2

It seems a lot of instructors are lazy or something. Turns should be initiated by your core (hips) and your shoulders. Teaching students to scrub off speed and steer with their feet will get them down the hill faster the first time, but as they progress, they'll have to relearn everything or be f-ed. All your balance and body control comes from your core, so if you ignore that as your speed increases, you'll be headed for Smashyville.
They aren't being lazy in this regard. If students don't have the concept of using their lower bodies.( i.e. feet or uphill edge presses into snow downhill lifts) a lot of time they will leave their boards very flat. Then when you use a upper body movement they are more likely to have their downhill edge catch in the snow causing a slam. Yes your core is the center of your balance and yes your hips can be a powerful turning force. But they are further away from the snow so take a longer time to initiate. With the shoulders they are not so much a turning force, as they are a stance indicator as a limiter or releaser of freedom of movement through to your lower body. By this I mean that if you are trying to turn left but your front shoulder is turned right your spine is bound up and your hips can only turn so far to the left. By turn the lead shoulder to the left as well you spine is able to come back to center and your hips are able to turn that much further to the left.
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post #13 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-09-2010, 03:31 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, it's my understanding that the feet ultimately control the board.

Some instructors use basic upper body movements to effect movement of the feet, which will then control the board. Other instructors teach the direct manipulation of the feet ("Foot steering").

For example, I think (not totally sure on this) that the CASI start beginners with Shoulder Steering, but move to Foot Steering later on, at a more advanced level.

Just to be clear, I know that a lot of stuff in snowboarding requires upper body movements, and I know that the upper body must be dynamic during turning... but I don't think turning the upper body is required to make turns or carves, with the foot steering approach.

There's a pretty good carving example here:
YouTube - Advanced Snowboarding Tips : How to Carve on a Snowboard

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post #14 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-10-2010, 09:11 AM
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You're correct. Upper body use isn't required for normal carves. If you just want the sidecut to do the turn radius for you, then use just your lower body. If you want deeper, tighter carves, upper body is going to come into play.

Also, how do you navigate mogul fields? How is one to whip the tail around and make almost 90 degree alternating turns without using upper body or hips?

I want to see someone riding a mogul field using purely foot steering without launching off one head on.

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post #15 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-10-2010, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Leo View Post
I want to see someone riding a mogul field using purely foot steering without launching off one head on.
Good point

Sure, there are times when you need the upper body, especially for freestyle, but also for riding...

So just going back to the start of the thread, I'd say the concepts of both foot steering and shoulder steering are known of/discussed/used, over in the U.S and Canada...

Thanks for all the input guys!

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post #16 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-10-2010, 09:34 AM
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I just think learning all the mechanics is a good idea. It just seemed to me that you were saying that the instructors completely srubbed upper body out of the turning/carving picture.

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post #17 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-10-2010, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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Yeah, in some ways I think they have. I'm pretty sure the BASI approach (british association) focusses entirely on foot steering.

Like I said though, I'm not an instructor, and I haven't seen instructors teaching people to ride in more varied situations, like moguls for example.

But - that was the reason for the original post - to see what people think, see if it sounds strange, see if anyone knows the CASI/AASI approach on this, etc.

What I'd like to see is someone showing good carving technique on a really steep, hard run. In all the videos they pick some blue run or something and make the turns look good.

I can do that. I want to see it on something really hard

Cheers

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post #18 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-10-2010, 09:59 AM
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I hope Snowolf chimes in soon. He's our resident instructor and is really good at explaining these things. He has a few videos of harder terrain.

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post #19 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-10-2010, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinHope View Post

What I'd like to see is someone showing good carving technique on a really steep, hard run. In all the videos they pick some blue run or something and make the turns look good.

I can do that. I want to see it on something really hard

Cheers
Can see it all the time in the movies, but for us mere mortals it hard to catch on tape due to the terrain, speed and no heli...sometimes from the chair...however you can see evidence of good carving by looking at the lines drawn. The other thing is that dropping big lines is usually done on good pow days where you probably do more leveraged carving instead of foot work.

I get to see folks drop this line and the like quite frequently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk_MTbAgaYQ


Last edited by wrathfuldeity; 09-10-2010 at 10:21 AM.
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post #20 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-10-2010, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryHugo View Post
x2

It seems a lot of instructors are lazy or something. Turns should be initiated by your core (hips) and your shoulders. Teaching students to scrub off speed and steer with their feet will get them down the hill faster the first time, but as they progress, they'll have to relearn everything or be f-ed. All your balance and body control comes from your core, so if you ignore that as your speed increases, you'll be headed for Smashyville.
actually most of the normal type of turns and even dynamic ones are started with your lower body, mainly with the flex/extension of your knees and putting pressure on the balls of your feet or heels.

the reason why we teach people not to lead with their shoulders is because that then causes it to be much harder to put pressure on your edges if your upper body is facing down hill as opposed to being stacked right over your board with all of your weight right above the edge that is engaged.

leading and turning with your shoulders is what will usually cause skidded turns and people who have what i like to call "rudder" foot. when someone just kicks their back leg back and forth like their back foot is a rudder on a boat.
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