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Old 12-18-2010, 04:30 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Basic Turning/Carving Question

I consider myself intermediate, but I'm still really new to snowboarding. I decided to upgrade my knowledge and buy some instructional DVDs. In one of the novice videos that I bought, the instructor says to "twist" the board when you turn on the board. He said when doing a heelside turn to lift your toes UP on your front foot and to push DOWN on your toes with your rear foot, thus sort of twisting the board a little bit. On toe side turns he said to do the opposite, down on your front toes and up on your back toes. I've always thought you lift your toes on both feet when on your heel, and go down on both toes when doing toe side. This was the only video that said to do this out of the 3 DVDs I bought (the video was made in 1998 I think so its a little old).

lol could someone clear this up for me????
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Old 12-18-2010, 05:51 PM   #2 (permalink)
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WOW thank you very much for clearing that up, and thank you even more for that smorgasbord of very interesting and detailed information!

I definitely extracted some useful information from your post that I will definitely practice as soon as I hit the hill. I also realized something from your post also: I definitely need another lesson or two. I'm sure I could basically read a bunch of threads on this forum to help me out a bunch, but instructional videos are definitely the kind of resources that really help me understand the different techniques a lot better. I guess I just absorb more information from actually seeing "it" done with my own eyes, as opposed to reading text. You wouldn't happen to know of a good intermediate/advanced instructional video that covers these types of things, would you? Nonetheless, thank you very much again for clearing up my confusion.
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Old 12-18-2010, 06:53 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Awesome sauce, thanks man.
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:15 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
The rider has just come out of a heelside turn and is traversing across the fall line and getting set up to make their toeside turn. At this point, the rider is riding the uphill, heelside edge with both toes raised. With their weight shifted slightly forward to weight the nose of the board, the rider will first relax the heel pressure of the front foot, allowing the front of the board to flatten out. This allows the nose to start dropping toward the fall line. As the entire board enters the fall line, the rider gently relaxes the rear foot as well so there is a brief moment where the board is flat based and pointing down the fall line.

At this stage, known as the control phase, the rider will then push down on the toes to pressure the toe edge of the board with the front foot. This puts a slight twist in the board engaging the sidecut at the contact point and really beginning to steer the board up and out of the fall line on its toe edge. Immediately following the establishment of the turn, the rider will gently and gradually increase the toe pressure with the rear foot to follow through and complete the turn. Without this application of pressure with the rear foot, the tail of the board will slip to the outside of the turn and cause the rider to spin out of control. You exit this turn fully on the uphill, toeside edge.
As always, incredibly useful stuff!

Perhaps you could address timing of turn initiation with respect to position relative to the fallline? For a season or so, I think I waited to long to engage the next front foot edge (e.g., engage front toe side edge in heel to toe turn). I would wait until I was almost parallel to the fall line before I went from front neutral to front engaged (was afraid of edge catches).

An instructor last season suggested a stop sign (octagon) geometrical metaphor for initiation (slashes are snowboard track, dots for spacing only):

E__
........\
.........\
..........\ D
...........|
...........| C
........../
........./ B2
___ / B1
A

So clearly, traversing A is not perpendicular to the fall line (C) but represents whatever angle you are on across the slope. In your explanation above, I think I am supposed to go front foot neutral at A, let board drift toward fall line during early B1, and then engage the new front edge later in B2 but before C. What held me back for a season was waiting too long to engage that new front edge.

I still rely on "inclination" as you describe above (extending knees at C and leaning over edge, bending knees at late D and E) and have not yet progressed to true "angulation" as you describe above.

Is the above consistent with your explanation? Any further timing suggestions? Is timing different for inclination verus angulation?

Thanks!
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Old 12-20-2010, 01:06 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I just took a lesson this saturday and I heard something nobody ever mentioned to me. It's extremely helpful and you do it kind of like as you initiate the front foot into your turn. This is probably like obvious to some people but it makes a really big difference if you haven't ever done this. While you move your front foot to start a toe turn, you kind of push the knee of your front foot in towards your back foot and the turn happens more naturally. After that you go on your toes on your back foot as well and complete the turn. Same thing when you want to start a heel turn, only this time you push your knee outwards, away from your back foot. It makes it feel a lot more natural and it happens a lot easier when you start focusing a lot on that front knee.

Oh and this is all if you're riding regular. idk how to explain it if you're riding goofy sorry :/
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Old 12-20-2010, 01:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
Somewhat....now, for dynamic skidded turns, you actually switch to the downhill edge even earlier. For our purposes of making basic linked turns, allow the board to enter the fall line before making the edge change. This reduces edge catches with a new rider.

Here is the dichotomy of your very basic turn:

Regular Rider going from heel to toe:

Toes of both feet raided to traverse across hill until:

A: relaxing of front foot to allow the nose to begin to drop down the fall line.

B: As the board enters the fall line, the rear foot begins to relax as well letting the board begin to go flat based.

C: Both feet flat, board is flat based pointed down the fall line.

D: Rider now begins to pressure the toe edge by pushing down the toes of the front foot and the board begins to turn up the hill out of the fall line.

E: Turn is fully established and the the rider follows through with the rear foot by pushing down on the toes of the rear foot to traverse across the hill on the toe edge.

F: Rider begins to set up for turning to heelside by relaxing front foot.
Thanks! And your drawing is much more effective ...

To clarify, I "think" I am past a basic linked turn and into (hopefully) dynamic skid turns. Flat board at C was the way I rode with basic linked turns. According to your drawing, I am now making the edge transition at B, extending legs and leaning at C-D (both front and rear feet engaging new edge), bending knees late E, and relaxinf front foot at F for next turn. I will sometimes bleed a little speed at E by skidding out (not always, and more often on toe to heel turns). On heel to toe, I can sometimes make the turn without skidding out the rear.

Am I starting my edge transition too early?

I do plan on mroe lessons this season, but hope to get it straight in my head first.

By the way, I am a goofy rider with dominant right foot and dominant right eye My switch is coming along too (I use the above turning while switch/reg but always with skid).
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Old 12-20-2010, 01:19 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Snowolf its good to see someone with the technical knowledge of riding you have and the ability to put it into words! Wish I knew someone like you about 16 years ago.
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Old 12-20-2010, 02:28 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
I will frequently make the edge change completely at A with the board perpendicular to the fall line .... [which] helps "work the top of the turn" and gets my edge set early on so I can be braking all through the turn. This helps prevent the skidding at the bottom of the turn.
Hmmm, I thought the braking was the skidding coming out of the turn. Is is something else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
For more dynamic turns, start your extension sooner like right after A or B and begin to flex earlier like at C and flex through the bottom of the turn. Extending through the bottom of the turn can cause stiff legs and that contributes to board chatter and the skid downhill.
AHA! This makes sense. I have been trying to force myself to extend at C-D and it felt unnatural (like I was fighting natural movement). And here I have been trying to delay a natural impulse to extend at early B!

Thanks a ton for the great input

As an aside, my LT Dark Series has continuous rocker. I picked up the Bataleon Green to learn to jump -- and it has really forced me to focus more on turn initiation (no rocker coupled with uplifted edges). I still prefer rocker turns for that between the feet surf feeling but the camber practice (with upturned TBT edges requiring exagerated motions) seems to be a great drill/practice device (though not so much for switch given set back and geometry).
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Old 12-25-2010, 02:23 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Some random guy I met on a chairlift gave me a good suggestion to keep the weight in the back of the board when you do toe side turns and just let the front of the board "ride" over the bumps. This greatly reduces your chances of losing your grip and catching an edge.
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