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Old 07-02-2011, 07:31 PM   #21 (permalink)
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it looked to me like a classic and correct use if counter to slow and stop his rotation.
I totally agree with your statement. I feel this is what Donutz is trying to explain, if it's not he'll let us know. At least this is my version of what I do/call counter rotation. Again, it may be incorrect terminology, but it is what I am able to visualize and understand.

I still wish Steez would chime in
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Old 07-02-2011, 10:45 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Basically, you are totally correct in that the "argument" is really only about semantics and the use of the action verb "rotation" as in "counter rotation" to describe an static, non action position. My only issue with Donutz`s last post was this concept of twisting counter to your rotation in mid air, generating spin. It has the opposite effect; it stops rotation. I think we are all (Donutz included) really talking about a very, very similar set of movements and positions but are using different terms and also perhaps the intensity of said movements. As I said, it is not an argument per se, rather a discussion from some different perspectives.
I agree, and more importantly each post brings us a few hours closer to next season

Maybe it'd help if we took it out of spins for a second. Do we all agree what a "shiftie" is? (Your spelling may vary). As you are in the air, you shift your board either somewhat clockwise or somewhat CCW. You do this by rotating your upper body in the opposite direction in order to maintain net zero angular momentum. Then the opposite to bring the board back into line.

When I am doing a counter-rotated 180, I launch flat with no rotation, i.e. if I just relax after launch, it'll just end up being a straight air. There's no initial rotation, no net angular momentum. But because I started the jump facing forward, (what I think you're calling a pre-wind), I'm in a position to rotate my upper body clockwise (remember I'm regular). This has the effect of causing my lower body (including board) to rotate CCW to maintain net zero angular momentum. the lower body only rotates enough to compensate for the upper body movement, but if done right it's enough to complete a frontside 180.

I have the feeling, like you, that we're splitting hairs and quite likely thinking about virtually the same sets of techniques in different terms.

Also, my wife just threatened to bash me with the remote if I don't get off the goddam computer. I think I'm done for the evening

CU
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Old 07-03-2011, 12:40 AM   #23 (permalink)
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But because I started the jump facing forward, (what I think you're calling a pre-wind), I'm in a position to rotate my upper body clockwise (remember I'm regular). This has the effect of causing my lower body (including board) to rotate CCW to maintain net zero angular momentum. the lower body only rotates enough to compensate for the upper body movement, but if done right it's enough to complete a frontside 180.
what doesnt make sense to me is how start off opened up facing towards the lip with your upper body, get in the air then move your upper body the opposite way towards your bs spin and your lower body ends up going fs during this.

when i think of a fs 180 with "counter" in it i would approach the jump just like i would normally, edging slightly from toe to heel, and when i pop off the lip i spin my upper body CCW while keeping my lower body in the original position for as long as possible then let it catch back up with my upper body before the landing.
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Old 07-03-2011, 12:04 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Well, I'm back, head still un-bashed

What you're describing is rotation. You're giving yourself a rotation as you launch, by jumping off your edges a certain way. OK, I'm gonna try this one more time, then simply accept that I can't describe it adequately.

First, think of doing a straight air. No spin, no 180, no nohing.

Now, think of doing a straight air, but instead of your shoulders being parallel to the board, as you approach the jump you had turned your upper body so that you're facing forward on your board, and your shoulders are perpendicular to the board. But still don't do anything as you launch. It's still a straight air, just with bad form.

Now, do all that, but after you launch, rotate your upper body clockwise (if you're regular) and your lower body/board counterclockwise. If you had enough prewind, and if you're not too bottom-heavy, you'll be able to bring your board all the way around to switch without having any initial rotation.

I was beginning to doubt my own sanity after this thread, so I went back and re-watched the 180's vid, and yeah, it's saying what I remember it saying. I think the problem must be that I'm explaining it badly and creating a different image from what I'm trying to.

Also, even in a counter-rotated 180, I think there must be some initial rotation, otherwise you'd end up facing backside. The counter's probably mostly "tuning" the jump so that you land having done 180 rather than, say, 210 (which we all know is bad).
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Old 07-03-2011, 12:51 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Well, I'm back, head still un-bashed

What you're describing is rotation. You're giving yourself a rotation as you launch, by jumping off your edges a certain way. OK, I'm gonna try this one more time, then simply accept that I can't describe it adequately.

First, think of doing a straight air. No spin, no 180, no nohing.

Now, think of doing a straight air, but instead of your shoulders being parallel to the board, as you approach the jump you had turned your upper body so that you're facing forward on your board, and your shoulders are perpendicular to the board. But still don't do anything as you launch. It's still a straight air, just with bad form.

Now, do all that, but after you launch, rotate your upper body clockwise (if you're regular) and your lower body/board counterclockwise. If you had enough prewind, and if you're not too bottom-heavy, you'll be able to bring your board all the way around to switch without having any initial rotation.

I was beginning to doubt my own sanity after this thread, so I went back and re-watched the 180's vid, and yeah, it's saying what I remember it saying. I think the problem must be that I'm explaining it badly and creating a different image from what I'm trying to.

Also, even in a counter-rotated 180, I think there must be some initial rotation, otherwise you'd end up facing backside. The counter's probably mostly "tuning" the jump so that you land having done 180 rather than, say, 210 (which we all know is bad).
yea i understand exactly what you are saying but it still makes no sense to me how you can do those movements and get that outcome.
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Old 07-03-2011, 01:12 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Give it a try in your living room or den.
Stand up in your stance, rotate your arms forward, jump up and rotate your arms backward while rotating your hips/legs forward and pretend to ride off in the opposite stance.
See what happens or how it feels.
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Old 07-03-2011, 01:20 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Give it a try in your living room or den.
Stand up in your stance, rotate your arms forward, jump up and rotate your arms backward while rotating your hips/legs forward and pretend to ride off in the opposite stance.
See what happens or how it feels.
i know all this, i teach freestyle for a living and still have trouble seeing this as being a good way to do a 180.

when you are in mid air i feel like you would have a lot of trouble to just throw your upper body in the opposite direction than you were facing all while your lower body is going in the opposite direction of that. i feel like at best your legs can get around a little past 90 and then have to slide around the rest of the spin.
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Old 07-03-2011, 01:28 PM   #28 (permalink)
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i tried doing what donutz was talking about and my upper body has now sheared away from the lower half of my torso, and unfortunately now....



.... i think i did it wrong...

so then i just waited till i was almost off the lift, turned my shoulders and my head - and holy shit i did a 180.
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Old 07-03-2011, 03:25 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Not only that but as you and I both know as instructors, our goal and that of AASI is to develop and promote efficient movements to achieve optimum board performance. We strive to teach others and ourselves to ride smarter not harder. Even if all this aerial gymnastics worked , why would you want to work twice as hard to achieve the same performance? I may just be lazy but if all I really need to do to throw a nice clean floaty 180 is to casually anticipatory rotate, that's what I am going to do and forget all of the mid air contortions!
ha pretty much where i was trying to get at but you explained it better then i could have.
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Old 07-03-2011, 04:03 PM   #30 (permalink)
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even better....we got 5 pages from a simple 180 question

and like Wolf pointed out much earlier we are not all that far off from each other, and it is giving us something to discuss in July like Donutz mentioned.

I'm gonna just hang back at this point
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