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Old 12-23-2012, 11:26 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Talking Heelside carving problem!?!

Well I had a great day out carving yesterday on hardpack that had a light dusting of snow on top of it. Here's my problem... and keep in mind I've been carving for 21 years but I'm on a new board now that's allowing me to get that much closer to the snow!

Board is almost brand new with 5 days on it: On my toe side I can lay right down and the board digs a trench, I end up carving a fairly short radius deep turn. Then I get on on my heelside and try to lay down an equal carve and I start getting chatter instead of the board digging a trench.

I've never felt this before so my solution yesterday was to carve wider turns on my heelside, but I tried several times to get the heelside to really bite, and on the steep stuff it always ended up getting chattery.

Thoughts?

1) I'm still riding symmetrical duck and was thinking about going to a more modified duck stance for this board.

2) I tried weight control both on the nose and tail and didn't notice much of a different.

3) The other thing I was thinking was that on my toe side there's no stiff highback transferring loads to my ankles, so the softness of the boots may act as a small suspension and allow the board to bite without overbiting and becoming chattery? Maybe if I dial less lean into the highback it'll allow the boots to do their thing before the highback has to take over?

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Old 12-23-2012, 12:14 PM   #2 (permalink)
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This thread has been discussing this issue, more or less: http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tip...heel-side.html

Also, I have this exact problem, but I've figured out how to correct it. First, when I turh heelside I'm turning more, i.e. getting farther from the fall line before starting the next toeside turn. I think I'm trying to bleed off more speed when I can see the slope. Second, I'm going more backseat during the heelside turn. These habits are either caused by or cause my reluctance to commit my upper body to the next toeside turn, i.e. leaning into it. And possibly most important, the problem is much diminished when I make a point of doing the flexion (pulling in the board) when going across the fall line and extending at the outsides of the turn. It might be that this simply takes my mind of the slope. Dunno.

Yesterday on Earls I made a point on several tries of trying to correct all these problems. It all came together one one particular run, and it was like magic. No chatter, totally in control. Beauty.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I've noticed (and been told) that your toe side naturally has much more 'suspension' due to the extra flex available through your toes/feet/ankles on that side. Whereas your heels only have a straight line to transmit forces up through your legs. So the answer is to keep your knees slightly looser heel-side to actively soak up the extra forces and allow to edge to run true.

Of course that's all aside from any other differences in technique/turn shape that might exist in your style.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:34 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donutz View Post
This thread has been discussing this issue, more or less: http://www.snowboardingforum.com/tip...heel-side.html
Yeah I read that thread but it was more about the OP taking a tighter line and over turning forcing a slider turn (I think)... I'm trying to do equal radius turns on equal surfaces and while my toe side bites the heel side chatters. It is an odd surface of 2" snow over hardpack, which normally I chatter on both edges over. This board is the first time I've been able to really bite hard on the toe side, and I'm trying to do that on the heel side too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slush Puppie View Post
I've noticed (and been told) that your toe side naturally has much more 'suspension' due to the extra flex available through your toes/feet/ankles on that side. Whereas your heels only have a straight line to transmit forces up through your legs. So the answer is to keep your knees slightly looser heel-side to actively soak up the extra forces and allow to edge to run true.
That might just be it... On my toe side I concentrate on driving my knees towards the snow to get the edge angled, on my heel side maybe I've got to concentrate on getting my butt towards the snow and keeping the knees more heavily bent (I already ride in a fairly crouched position when I'm cooking)...

I should note that it was only one part of the hill this was really pronounced. For most of the runs I was fine on both edges, but there's one section where the hardpack is really hard and I'm not sure what surprised me more, the heelside edge chatter or the fact that my toeside was able to bite into it!

I may make some binding adjustments next time I notice it and report back here...

edit: Just read a thread on bomberonline (hardboot forum) about heelside chatter and there were various responses about body positioning, cant angle, etc. etc. but it seemed the general consensus was more weight on the front foot. I did try weighting the front yesterday but I may go back to the drawing board and try to heavily weight the front at turn in. What bugs me is that the toe side carve is so easy and natural, I just fall over and the thing hooks, seems like I have to work at the heel side.

BTW I'm trying to do something similar to euro carving, with a BX style board here. Short sharp carves I'm fine, long fast carves I'm fine, it's that deep euro S carve at a moderate pace that is causing the chatter.

Last edited by poutanen; 12-23-2012 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:37 PM   #5 (permalink)
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In my case, I've had the problem on 3 different boards, so I can't blame it on the equipment.
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:28 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Just a thought, but in the past I've experienced this both toe and heel side at different times. I found that my bindings were to far toe, or heel side reducing the weight/pressure on the edge I was getting chatter on.
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Old 12-26-2012, 04:19 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
So, one possibility here is that you are doing everything perfectly but when you hit that one section, you simply exceed the performance limitation of the equipment at the speed and rate of turn you are attempting. If this is the case you have three options. You can learn to live with a bit of chatter, you can slow down or you can decrease your rate of turn. Keep in mind that a snowboard is never going be 100%, there are subtle irregularities that will also cause it to behave slightly different on one edge or the other. These subtle differences will only be noticed at the performance threshold.
Thanks for the advice!

Update time: Went out today to the same resort I had the issue at last weekend. Conditions were very similar, temps very similar. This time I started on an easier run to get my legs into it. At a moderate speed I started doing some great heelside and toeside carves with no issues.

Brought the speed up more and no issues. Went onto a different run and there was the chatter again but only when my speed is up and the pitch steep (i.e. 30 deg or so). I lowered my speed just a TOUCH and it went away. Also I noticed on the easier runs that one my heelside if I really focused on having my knees QUITE bent (i.e. they'd be pretty close to a right angle at the joint) and pressing through the board, it was very comfortable. Got slightly lazy in my stance and back was the chatter.

So here's my lesson learned: It's a new board, it has a much longer sidecut radius than anything I've owned before. This allows the board to be on a much steeper angle given the same turning radius. This is going to have my legs at different angles than I'm used to, weight in a different location, etc. And I needed to spend time learning the actual ins and outs of the board. Today was only my 6th day on the board, and I feel like it's taken this long to start to really understand the substantial differences in it, and how to adapt my style for it!

When I went from my last board to the T7, I went from a 153 to a 159, but they were similar shaped boards. Similar sidecut, similar effective edge. This new board has a very different sidecut radius, and almost 20 cm longer effective edge despite being only 1 cm longer than my T7. It's a different animal!

One important thing I've learned is that demo'ing a board might not be the best way to test them. If I had demo'd this board for two runs, I would have walked away. After one day I really liked it (got some great toeside carves out of it on day one), after day 3 and 4 I wanted to kiss it, on day 5 I was frustrated by it (or me) and now after day 6 I can honestly say it's a better board than I am, and I'm learning new things that I haven't learned in 21 years on the snow, and it's taking my riding to the next level!

Cheers all!
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Old 12-26-2012, 04:37 PM   #8 (permalink)
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If you like carving why ride duck? Try bot pos angles..I use +21 + 18 for pure carve, +18 + 12 / +15, +9 for mid and pow days.
That should help you on the heelside... there is a reason why hardbooters ride with very steep positive angles...




Quote:
Originally Posted by poutanen View Post
Well I had a great day out carving yesterday on hardpack that had a light dusting of snow on top of it. Here's my problem... and keep in mind I've been carving for 21 years but I'm on a new board now that's allowing me to get that much closer to the snow!

Board is almost brand new with 5 days on it: On my toe side I can lay right down and the board digs a trench, I end up carving a fairly short radius deep turn. Then I get on on my heelside and try to lay down an equal carve and I start getting chatter instead of the board digging a trench.

I've never felt this before so my solution yesterday was to carve wider turns on my heelside, but I tried several times to get the heelside to really bite, and on the steep stuff it always ended up getting chattery.

Thoughts?

1) I'm still riding symmetrical duck and was thinking about going to a more modified duck stance for this board.

2) I tried weight control both on the nose and tail and didn't notice much of a different.

3) The other thing I was thinking was that on my toe side there's no stiff highback transferring loads to my ankles, so the softness of the boots may act as a small suspension and allow the board to bite without overbiting and becoming chattery? Maybe if I dial less lean into the highback it'll allow the boots to do their thing before the highback has to take over?

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Old 12-26-2012, 04:40 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRKRIDER View Post
If you like carving why ride duck? Try bot pos angles..I use +21 + 18 for pure carve, +18 + 12 / +15, +9 for mid and pow days.
That should help you on the heelside... there is a reason why hardbooters ride with very steep positive angles...
I'm still hanging onto this small glimmer of hope that I may be decent at freestyle tricks one of these days. I actually used to ride with 0 and +15 or so but slowly moved towards symmetrical duck over the years.

With this board I'm thinking about notching it back towards forward stance a few degrees at a time.
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Old 12-26-2012, 04:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poutanen View Post
I'm still hanging onto this small glimmer of hope that I may be decent at freestyle tricks one of these days. I actually used to ride with 0 and +15 or so but slowly moved towards symmetrical duck over the years.

With this board I'm thinking about notching it back towards forward stance a few degrees at a time.

Pick one...either park tricks or trenches. start +21 + 18 and see how that feels for carving.
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