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Steep chutes, blacks, double blacks. Question regarding technique.

16K views 33 replies 19 participants last post by  t21 
#1 ·
Browsing YouTube and stumbled upon this video, and just wondering if this would be considered good technique going down steep stuff.

http://youtu.be/k5fWisJs4AI

I am asking because my confidence has grown, and I find myself attacking the steep stuff more and more. My technique is not 100% perfected, but correct me if I'm wrong, but it's almost impossible to initiate turns with the traditional "gas pedal" method on very steep stuff. It seems you have to jump in from heel to toe and vice versa.

How do you guys ride the steeps?
 
#2 ·
Here's a quote from Snowolf, I guess I didn't search.

This applies for both turns but especially so for the heelside turn. The reason you are washing out most likely is because you are most likely too stiff legged and are remaining too far forward at the end of the turn.

As you no doubt know, to initiate a good turn on steep terrain, you need to shift your weight forward over the front foot. The problem is that often we get so focused on this that we forget that there is a time to get aft on our board. In addition, we have learned to flex (get low) going into each turn and then gradually extend through the turn. What often happens though is we extend through the apex of the turn and then become static through turn completion. Both of these things allow the tail of our board to loose edge hold and skid out from under us.

To correct this, we need to alter our riding technique a little bit. First, let`s talk about this fore-aft movement. We start out with a forward shift to initiate the turn. As soon as we enter into the turn, we should be slowly shifting our weight rearward. As we approach the apex of the turn, we should be fully centered and slowly moving aft. After we pass apex and going through turn completion, we actually should have our weight shifted fully aft so that we feel most of our weight on the back foot.

This sounds totally counter to everything we have been taught about riding right? On the surface it is but when you start getting outside of the box for typical intermediate riding terrain, the techniques change. On this super steep terrain, edge hold becomes an issue. In order to maintain edge hold, the rider must keep maximum weight on the part of the edge that has the most lateral force (basically pulling to the outside of the turn) As we enter the turn completion phase, this is the tail of the board and by shifting our weight back, we are applying downward pressure to keep the tail locked in. Its like adding weight to the bed of a pickup truck on an icy road; it keeps the rear of the truck from skidding.

Now on to the flexing and extending and their timing. We flex low going into a turn so that we can gradually extend through the turn. This extension has the effect of increasing downward edge pressure which makes our turns more powerful and it locks the edge of the snowboard into the snow more effectively. Now, when we reach the apex of the turn and start to bring the board back toward us, we need to slowly retract our legs to help bring the board back up under us. If we remain static in our fully extended position, we are in essence fighting ourselves.

More importantly though, in the turn completion phase of the turn we have the most force trying to pull the tail to the outside of the turn. Our momentum down the slope, gravity and centrifugal force all want to rip the tail out from under us. Now, by flexing slowly, we can counteract these forces a little bit. The flexing through turn completion helps pull the tail back up hill towards slightly and can soften the tail chatter that happens just prior to the edge hold being lost.

So, to sum it up, shift forward on turn entry and slowly shift aft all the way through turn completion to move your weight down along your edge where the most force is acting upon it. Secondly, start low and extend through your turn to the apex and as you go through the apex of the turn, slowly start flexing low again.

Lastly, watch your rotary movements! While it is certainly okay to use rotary movements with dynamic riding, you can overdo it; especially on heelside. An over rotation can also increase that force that is trying to break the tail of the board free and start a skid.
 
#3 ·
As far as the video goes its about the right way to get down, and I dont know the terrain and what the conditions were like, but it looked like a lot of arm flailing and every time he went to slow down he basically skidded to a stop and switched edges. I would have tried to keep more speed by having less of an edge angle and making more turns quicker so I could keep the speed under control without needing to pump the edge up so much im shaking and hoping down the run snowplowing skidding to a stop. Also when you get into steep and tight shit it is pretty impossible to do the traditional gas pedal turn initiation method as you would on a controlled run, just because it takes too dam long. Riding like that involves being very dynamic, as most good riders are. That involves controlled counter rotation movements with the upper body, lots of weight shifting, using that back foot to get the board around if you need to, and crossing under turns especially when its tight and narrow.

As far as literally jumping from heel to toe and vice versa to turn, I find myself doing that every now and then when I am riding steeper terrain but that is mainly because I am playing around and adding in steeze points haha. Or if its a big open area with nice soft snow for predictable edge control. But if its really technical or tight riding you want that turn to be your speed control, and literally jumping edge to edge won't give you that brake check like a full edge turn will. I dont usually jump edge to edge, its more of a faster skidded turn with a whole lot of flexing and extension.
 
#5 ·
Not the "right" way to handle steep terrain, but it is certainly a way to manage it in "survival mode". Basically, all he was doing was sideslipping the whole way down. He would side slip on the heel edge, pop 180 and side slip on the toe edge. Not really making any turns. At the entrance to the chute, totally understandable, but when it opened up, there was no reason not to make decent turns; that pitch wasnt that bad and the snow conditions looked pretty good. Not dissing the guy`s riding, but a more advanced rider used to steep terrain could have made some good turns on most of that.
I have to ask, WHY is that guy riding that terrain? It seems almost straight down. I can only imagine that the only way that would be enjoyable would be if there was about 3' of powder to ride through lol. Otherwise, maybe to say "hey I went down that" but ...didja really? One might as well take their board off and slide down with an icepick in one hand...just saying.

This goes back to an earlier post of mine. Riding down nice powder covered blacks, only to have them turn into a mogul field 2 hour laters because, people that have NO right on being on those steeps create those moguls from making very sharp dynamic turns on skis to avoid the speed. Well, then why not ski blues and leave the terrain at least somewhat rideable, or at least make wide turns!

Sigh
 
#10 ·
THe most important is to be stoked, whatever you ride or however you ride.

Forget the confidence thing, work on being a more competent rider. At first it's difficult to handle speed so people spend a lot of their ride controlling/shaving off speed. But as you're able to handle more speed, you can make better carves because your attack angle is not against the terrain (you are riding down the hill, not across). Also with rocks in the way, you need to plan your line before you drop so you don't have to work slowly down the hill. You examine the line, see where are the danger points are, where you can flat out and where you need to do a big carve to get rid of speed.
 
#12 ·
Not sure what it looks like below that chute, but if it's a big wide open slope I'd probably just Xavier De La Rue that chute and then lay down a big, sweeping, powder slinging turn across the slope.
Like the sound of it but... Probably not quite what you had in mind? (see pic) :) But even with the runout you describe, I'm not at that level anyway(relative beginner). I was just stoked to be riding something like that full stop (and to get down it cleanly). Still stoked about it now in fact :) Feels like a milestone in my riding.

So I'll leave you and Xavier to straightlining the steeps (for now) :)
 

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#16 ·
So I had some steeps to practice with last week, and although I struggled at times, I tried maintaining somewhat of an edge, before having to stop uphill and do an 180, and repeat.
 
#19 ·
Good show! It does take a lot out of you, so nothing wrong with doing some good turns, then taking a break to catch your breath. Better than sideslipping the whole way down...

I've been on runs similar to that at Kicking Horse, and steeper ones at Fernie. You obviously can't ride them as you would something with a 25-30 degree slope unless there's been a MASSIVE powder dump.

There's one run at Fernie that has a very narrow entrance (similar to what wrathfuldeity posted) but after about a 30 ft 45 deg chute it opens up REAL wide and mellows to probably 35-40 degrees for several hundred feet. That's the only place I've ever comfortably "carved" on such a steep slope... I bought a helmet cam again so I'll have to get some videos of some of the bowl entrances I keep talking about on here! :yahoo:
 
#20 ·
That first vid (OP) does look pretty bumpy. You see him get a bit of air off a bump as he exits the chute. Imagine if he had've tried bombing it :laugh:

I def think the vid does it no justice. From the way he's riding it looks pretty steep... and yeah, bumps. Sure if it was fresh it'd be different.

Had a situation the other day where my buddy was dropping a spot, and I thought it'd be good idea too. I got to the drop and realised the runout looked sketchy and I didn't like the idea of a tomahawk right then so I had to ride it out rather than get some air. Sometimes you end up in those situations and can't be elegant. More survival tactics than anything. Should I have stuck to terrain I know I can ride well? No. Gotta push yourself!

Anyway...
 
#21 · (Edited)
Here's a "goal" video for me! these guys seem a little more efficient in riding chutes!



1:35 to 1:50 is what I need to improve, going toe/heel really smooth. When I do it, it's very choppy, and doesn't look elegant. :)
 
#25 ·
Before I comment, full disclosure:

I'm an intermediate rider, I like riding "steep" Michigan blacks and have zero experience with anything out west yet or chutes. So I might be talking out of my ass here.

As he approached and entered the chute I'd probably handle it the way he did. Feel my way through it and make it out. But once he cleared the chute he was wide open and really could have opened up the throttle and had some sweet turns.

I would have pointed my nose down and had some fun with that, the snow looked great.
 
#26 ·
the first video is how not to do it. the guy is riding like its the last run of the day - or he's just out of shape. he isn't bending his knees! he's riding standing up, stiff legged, throwing his center of gravity from toeside to heel thru his stood up torso :dizzy: its crap riding. he's falling over and grabbing onto the hill on every third turn...

the second video is how to do it, regardless of the conditions. take it down the fall line, not back and forth all swishy swashy across the whole area... i'm not saying you can't bleed of speed - watch the second video, they turn completely sideways to have total control over speed when they need to - you don't need POW to ride like that. every time they're going perpendicular to the fall line and either stopping or getting that face shot you can do that on fucking ice, you can do that on top of moguls, you can do it in a box with a fox wearing sox.

the key is to do it using your legs, bending your knees, and keeping your upper body centered and quiet. you can lean way over and drag a hand on a huge high-speed pow turn, but you should be centered in an athletic position and moving pretty much down the fall line - even if you do have to sideslip a part or something.
 
#27 ·
So much great info here!! Thank you all! This is why I love this forum, everyone's pitching in with ideas, techniques and tips. Love it.

Now, off to the mountain to find some steeps and practice...
 
#28 ·
Lastly, when things start to go to shit on you......BEND SOMETHING!
Probably the best riding advice ever - and one of the hardest, most unnatural things to do. When your mind is screaming to lock your legs, that exactly when you need to be loose and bend those knees. It's a bad habit I still catch myself doing sometimes, especially when I'm tired and need to hang it up for the day.
 
#30 ·
Having grown up with my dad being a skier, I board and ski, but there have been lots of times he has taken me down some narrow shoots when im boarding that are much more favorable to be on ski's. I thought the guy could have made some smoother turns when it opened up a little.
 
#31 ·
Remember:

Flexion and extension and their timing:

Get as low as you can possibly get ( make it hurt a little) and retract the front leg as you shift forward. Extend through apex to increase edge pressure then as you shift aft, retract that rear leg to get low through completion.
I think I get everything except this. I guess the question is, how do you down unweight for the edge change if you are already low at the completion of the turn?
 
#34 ·
on that second vid.around 2:50 was some tight run between rocks:eek: but that too is what i strive for on real narrow steeps and chutes. on OP's vid,have anyone notice two boarders sitting on the middle of that run??
 
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