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**Donutz** · 01-22-2013, 09:37 AM

Check out this video:

Snowboard Trick Tip: Buttered Pretzel - YouTube

The guy is using what he calls counter-rotation, and I'm pretty sure it's what ras means by the term. This may or may not be a discussion of terminology, but there is definitely a technique that exists where you prewind your body and then release that prewind to effect (or stop) a rotation.

I'm fairly certain that Nev uses the term too, because that's where I got it from. (and no, I'm too damned lazy to review every video looking for it)

aiidoneus · 01-22-2013, 10:06 AM

Rasm why not just post a video, it will be very clear what is happening then!

**Donutz** · 01-22-2013, 01:26 PM

so what I'm hearing is that there is a movement (as in this video) that some people (incorrectly) refer to as counter-rotation. Which means this is an argument about terminology.

Fine with me. I don't give a crap what it's called, I still can't do it well

Jed · 01-22-2013, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasmasyean

No, that's correcting an under-winded 180 initiated by rotation...using last-second counter-rotation. bleh.

Here, you know when you walk? You use counter-rotation to a smaller degree. Your left foot forward, right hand forward, right foot back, left hand back. I don't know what AASI/CASI calls it, but I say your upper vs. lower body is "counter-rotated".

This is a natural biomechincal sequence to enable efficient use of bipedal locomotion. An analogy to snowboarding is a 180. Except the snowboard is pretty heavy so you have to swing your arms/shoulders MORE! Naturally, depending on your upper vs. lower body mass, everyone requires a different "arm-flail" to result in a complete 180.

So basically you're just talking about pre-winding using odd terms instead of just saying pre-wind. Either that or you're doing a pure counter-rotated 180 off a jump, which is a very odd way to 180 off jumps since it's 100 times easier to just use normal rotation to drift into that smooth, slow 180.

Also, Snowolf, I just checked the current CASI manual and we're still told to use the term 'counter-rotation' in the latest course reference manual

rasmasyean · 01-22-2013, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jed

So basically you're just talking about pre-winding using odd terms instead of just saying pre-wind. Either that or you're doing a pure counter-rotated 180 off a jump, which is a very odd way to 180 off jumps since it's 100 times easier to just use normal rotation to drift into that smooth, slow 180.

Also, Snowolf, I just checked the current CASI manual and we're still told to use the term 'counter-rotation' in the latest course reference manual

Just forget it. I've come to the conclusion that some ppl are just so stuck up about thier own "manuals and terminology" that they can't accept any other way of decribing the sport...or performing in it. It's actually embarasses me, because I'm American as well and this is just typical about Americans as many countries often point out.

Anyways to answer your question as to "why"...because exactly as you point out, a normal 180 is slow a counter-roatating 180 is fast. The is no way in hell you would be able to do a normal 180 as fast as a counter-rotated one without overspinning and reverting.

rasmasyean · 01-22-2013, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowolf

Please, enlighten us. What exactly is this so called "spinning a counter rotated 180" and how it is different from a "normal" 180 and why for such a small rotation, why it is even desirable to spin a faster 180 in the first place when everyone who actually does them tries to do them slower and more floaty because the look and feel better that way.

The only possible time a rider might rotate counter to their spin is to stop the spin once in the air. This again is not "counter rotation" it is simply counter and is assuming a static position to slow and stop rotation. I get what you are desperately trying to convey but you are doing it in a very bizarre and over complicated way, using outdated and inaccurate terminology that lends confusion and massive over complication of a simple concept.

This has nothing to do with Americans being stuck up on manuals and terminology and being unable to describe or perform the sport. It has to do with using terms and tasks that are efficient and make logical sense. It is you who are unable to evolve and adapt to better methods of teaching and riding.

Please stop trying to give advice to people, you don't have the knack of it....

OK, you win, Snowolf standards dictates what "looks and feels better that way".

And OK, I haven't updated my terms/techniques/lingo/principles since that 2 year old Sierra video that's "outdated". Appologies, that I have not kept up to date with the major advancements in the art since then! Sorry!

Jed · 01-23-2013, 12:10 AM

Honestly, even though I'm an instructor I don't care about terminology and I don't care if you want to do super fast 180s with whatever technique you want to use.

HOWEVER - please stop telling other people to use your technique because this is NOT how people should do 180s off jumps and it will screw up their spinning technique when they want to go to 360s and beyond.

You should not be giving freestyle advice if you don't have fundamental park basics down, which it's quite clear you don't.

I don't care how good or bad another snowboarder is, as long as they have fun it's fine to me, but stop giving advice if you're not in a position to be giving it. It does more harm than good even if it's coming from the right place.

seant46 · 01-23-2013, 12:46 AM

I agree with Snowolf and Jed, not good advice rasmasyean. I think if you wanted to do a 180 with a 'counter rotation, arm flail' motion it might work out on flat ground or small kickers, but once you start getting a little more air it sounds like an easy way to loose control and eat it.

**Donutz** · 01-23-2013, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowolf

Okay, forgetting the terminology for now, you still failed to answer the question. Describe the actual body movements involved in performing a "counter rotating 180". So is the lower body spinning one direction while the upper body spins the opposite direction and exactly what does this bizarre and complex maneuver accomplish for performing such a basic and low energy spin?

There's a move I do when going to/from switch. It happens a lot faster than I describe it, but anyway... Going down the slope, I rotate my upper body to face forward, then when I'm fully pre-wound I whip my upper body back in the opposite direction (unwind) while whipping my board around the other way. So, I'm regular, and going from regular to switch, I'd rotate my upper body CCW until pre-wound, then whip my upper body CW while whipping the board around CCW, and voila I'm in switch. There's no strong edging although I go slightly heelside just before doing the whip, and there's no jump -- just a bit of unweighting to prevent edge catch.

So what's the technical description for this?

seant46 · 01-23-2013, 04:41 PM

So much thinking for a 180

01-22-2013, 09:37 AM	#21 (permalink)
Donutz Drunk with power...er beer. Join Date: May 2010 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada Posts: 3,669 Blog Entries: 176	Check out this video: Snowboard Trick Tip: Buttered Pretzel - YouTube The guy is using what he calls counter-rotation, and I'm pretty sure it's what ras means by the term. This may or may not be a discussion of terminology, but there is definitely a technique that exists where you prewind your body and then release that prewind to effect (or stop) a rotation. I'm fairly certain that Nev uses the term too, because that's where I got it from. (and no, I'm too damned lazy to review every video looking for it) __________________ Illegitimi non carborundum Mountain Days: 30

01-22-2013, 10:06 AM	#22 (permalink)
aiidoneus -LIFETIME MEMBER- Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 333	Rasm why not just post a video, it will be very clear what is happening then! Last edited by aiidoneus; 01-22-2013 at 10:11 AM.

01-22-2013, 01:26 PM	#23 (permalink)
Donutz Drunk with power...er beer. Join Date: May 2010 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada Posts: 3,669 Blog Entries: 176	so what I'm hearing is that there is a movement (as in this video) that some people (incorrectly) refer to as counter-rotation. Which means this is an argument about terminology. Fine with me. I don't give a crap what it's called, I still can't do it well __________________ Illegitimi non carborundum Mountain Days: 30

01-23-2013, 12:10 AM	#27 (permalink)
Jed Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Whistler, BC Posts: 311	Honestly, even though I'm an instructor I don't care about terminology and I don't care if you want to do super fast 180s with whatever technique you want to use. HOWEVER - please stop telling other people to use your technique because this is NOT how people should do 180s off jumps and it will screw up their spinning technique when they want to go to 360s and beyond. You should not be giving freestyle advice if you don't have fundamental park basics down, which it's quite clear you don't. I don't care how good or bad another snowboarder is, as long as they have fun it's fine to me, but stop giving advice if you're not in a position to be giving it. It does more harm than good even if it's coming from the right place. __________________ I write for Snomie.com - How To Snowboard Videos, Snowboard Tips & Snowboard Lessons

01-23-2013, 12:46 AM	#28 (permalink)
seant46 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 730	I agree with Snowolf and Jed, not good advice rasmasyean. I think if you wanted to do a 180 with a 'counter rotation, arm flail' motion it might work out on flat ground or small kickers, but once you start getting a little more air it sounds like an easy way to loose control and eat it. Last edited by seant46; 01-23-2013 at 12:50 AM.

01-23-2013, 04:41 PM	#30 (permalink)
seant46 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 730	So much thinking for a 180

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