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Old 03-09-2013, 08:05 AM   #21 (permalink)
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yup! you can still get chatter as snowolf says due to edge hold issue. my board (Ride Antic) has slimewalls on them and it sure lessens the chatter on most terrains when it gets bumpy, but when you start skidding when you loose your edge it bucks you off balance
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Old 03-09-2013, 02:01 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
Chatter is a word used to describe several different things. What he described as chatter is correct and accurate. You have not experienced this "flapping" of the noes and tail most likely because I dont think you have ever ridden rocker?
Yeah I should have re-read the OP before posting. I've seen guys riding powder skis with the tip and tail flapping around while they were riding groomers. Sounds like that's what the OP is talking about?

Seemed totally normal although it's one more thing keeping me from riding a rocker board. I did look down a couple times at my "lifted tip" yesterday and saw that it flaps around a bit on groomers. Only in cruise mode though, once the edge is raised and carving commences it settles right down.
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:12 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
Chatter is a word used to describe several different things. What he described as chatter is correct and accurate. You have not experienced this "flapping" of the noes and tail most likely because I dont think you have ever ridden rocker? Traditional camber is lass prone to this and only the softest (the old Ride Kink was bad about this) ever really got this chatter. A better, more accurate word might be resonance.

To reduce this, the only thing you can do is either slow down or ride at higher edge angles.

The chatter you are describing and everyone who is an advanced rider carving steep terrain has felt is also chatter. This is obviously the edge hold giving way from either exceeding the limits of the board, or lack of perfect technique in a dynamic carve. I responded awhile back to you directly about this question you had but you never responded so I dont know if you read it. ......
I am not an advanced rider but I think I have experienced this second type of chatter where due to my adequate technique in steeps, I slipped out and fell (up the hill) as my heel-side edge hold gave way. But just before I slipped out, the chatters I experienced also seemed to be arising in the nose and tail portions of the board. Are you saying the first type of chatter is in the nose and tail, and the second type is not?
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:12 PM   #24 (permalink)
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My Raygun (price-point Rocker/Flat/Rocker board) is bad for both types of "chatter". Making sharp turns on tracked out steep blues is murder. My last few times out I've been compensating by bending my knees as low as possible and keeping more weight over my heel edge. Still any little thing can bounce me off my line.

As for that sketchy chatter at speed it is always the worst on the hard pack especially cat tracks (low edge angle or really just edge pressure) where you need to keep speed to make it uphill. I haven't ate it bad yet, but it always feels sketchy as hell.

Can't wait for my new Raptor to get here! Really looking forward to the C/R/C and the damper higher end ride!

Anybody want to buy a 159 Raygun with about 20 days of n00b hammering on it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poutanen View Post
Uhhhh what? I don't know if I've ever felt chatter while flatbasing.

It happens to me on my heelside when I'm trying to do a good solid carve on relatively hardpacked groomers. Instead of biting and carving, the board will slightly lose grip and "chatter" sideways over the surface. It's not a smooth skidded turn, it's a failed attempt at a proper carve with no skidding.

For me the fix was to bend my knees more on my heelside. Don't know why it worked, but it did!
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:05 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by poutanen View Post
Yeah I should have re-read the OP before posting. I've seen guys riding powder skis with the tip and tail flapping around while they were riding groomers. Sounds like that's what the OP is talking about?

Seemed totally normal although it's one more thing keeping me from riding a rocker board. I did look down a couple times at my "lifted tip" yesterday and saw that it flaps around a bit on groomers. Only in cruise mode though, once the edge is raised and carving commences it settles right down.
I don't know if it's because I don't go fast enough but my board is a full rocker and it doesn't do that at all, or at leas mot enough for me to notice. I got to a bit over 45mph today. not sure what mph you start feeling this though

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Old 03-09-2013, 11:29 PM   #26 (permalink)
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When it happens depends on a lot of factors, including:

How fast your going
How soft/stiff the board is
How much dampening the board has
How long the board is
Rider weight
Camber or rocker profile
Snow conditions
Rider technique

I've never felt anything but the slightest hint of chatter on my NS F1 at any speed or on any terrain. When it did sort of act like it might want to, it was while at high speed hitting some kind of small bump on really hard packed surface and being flat based. Of course, this is a VERY damp, relatively stiff board, and not full rocker, so I wouldn't expect it to chatter. Now thati think about it, the chatter onset thing started happening a couple of days before broke the nose...maybe that wasn't coincidence.

Other boards, don't have much experience with them, but I would expect it to chatter when flat if on a park style soft rocker with no damping and lots of pop. It's really a question of what you want out of a board.
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Old 03-10-2013, 05:05 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
The first type of chatter is generally harmonic resonance in the tip and tail induced by vibration from speed. It is more pronounced on soft boards with rockered tips and especially noticeable with full rocker. This type of chatter is more prevalent at low edge angles but can occurr in a carve as well. If this flutter occurrs during a critical phase of the carve, such as in the bottom of the heelside carve, it can induce an uncontrolled skid and total loss of edge hold.

The second type of chatter is a result of either imperfect riding technique at a critical phase of a high performance carve under demanding conditions, or simply going beyond the performance capabilities of the equipment in given conditions. In this case, ultimately both tip and tail will chatter as edge hold at the contact points fail but the incipient skid almost always begins at the tail due to the excessive forces generated in the bottom of turn.

Because total edge failure usually occurrs immediately following this incipient tail skid, it feels simultaneous and is often difficult for the rider to regain control. The only options available to the rider is to flex as low as possible to absorb the chatter, shift the board out ahead in an aggressive aft shift of the riders weight and try to decrease the rate of turn.

Obviously, prevention is the best strategy. Perfecting technique through the full use of flexion-extension, fore-aft movements and reducing over rotation and proper timing is crucial to reducing this incipient skid to prevent edge failure.
Many thanks for the detailed explanation. I have ridden a soft rockered board but have not experienced the first type of chatter you mentioned. Maybe I did not get it up to the critical speed for the resonance to play up.

For the second type of chatter, I used to get it more than currently with the exact same set of equipment. Maybe I am getting better in bending my knees more. Next time I will see if the aft shift will further eliminate this chatter for me. Thanks again.

But after reading your explanation, I begin to think the second type of chatter may have an element of the first type of chatter (resonance) in it. Does it not?
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:11 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Thanks Wolfie again for the detailed explanation and further insight into the science or resonance and harmonic dampening.

Actually I have routinely bent my ankles as well lately but I omitted mentioning it for simplicity above. This could explain why I am not not getting the amount of chatter I used to be getting. But the aft shift thing is something I have never incorporated into my turns ..... not saying I am able to do it just because I want to. Anyway I should seriously look into this.

Thanks again. Your explanation has been useful.
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