Torsional twist and short radius turns - Snowboarding Forum - Snowboard Enthusiast Forums
SnowboardingForum.com is the premier Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-28-2013, 11:59 AM   #1 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 22
Default Torsional twist and short radius turns

I've got 5 days snowboarding so far and feel like I'm gaining skill quickly. I'm 60 years old, but think that growing up skiing and skating is helping with progression. I've had one beginner snowboard lesson, but the best coaching tips I've found are Neil McNab's book/DVD Go snowBoard and Snowolf on this forum.

I'm looking for coaching tips related to this comment by snowolf

http://www.snowboardingforum.com/sno...tml#post701930
> I was able to easily twist this board effectively for very tight short
> radius turns which you need on this terrain.

I want to get skills to control turn radius in all kinds of terrain and conditions. My bias is wringing the most fun from boarding without going too fast.
cootcraig is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-28-2013, 02:17 PM   #2 (permalink)
Rides Caturdayz
 
seriouscat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 509
Blog Entries: 6
Default

I think he's talking about super tight dynamic skids. Which involves a lot of flex/extending, anticipatory alignment, and flexing feet in independent directions for the extra bit of agility.

I'd just practice the basic dynamic turns first before trying all of that. It takes a lot of things going at once and you don't really have time to think about it. It will come eventually. Heck I been working all of it into smooth movements from beginning the season and my zip line thru moguls still looks like crap.
__________________
I train every day of my life as they have never trained a day in theirs. Alexander Karelin
seriouscat is offline  
Old 02-28-2013, 05:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 22
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by seriouscat View Post
I'd just practice the basic dynamic turns first before trying all of that. It takes a lot of things going at once and you don't really have time to think about it. It will come eventually.
I have found technique cues from both McNab and Snowolf to be helpful already. Every time out, I have some techniques in mind to try - they might click or they might not. I also take runs just relaxing, enjoying myself and consolidating my skills.
cootcraig is offline  
Old 03-01-2013, 07:54 AM   #4 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 22
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
What specifically are you looking for?

In general, there are four board performance concepts that we care about as riders; they are Twist, Tilt, Pivot and Pressure. ...

Now, for training it is super easy to work with each of the four concepts individually to help dial them in so that the rider has a good feel for how much effect each one has on the overall riding task.

Let me know which one you really want to get a better understanding for and we will go from there...
I've been working on twist in 2 situations.

1) Initiating edge change. My cues have been twisting the leading foot to the new edge, with the trailing foot opposing the twist and then following to the tilt.

2) Directional control on traversing. My cue has been twisting the trailing foot to adjust direction with the leading foot opposing the twist to hold the desired edge tilt to hold the traverse.

Does that sound right?

I'm wanting advice on how to control turn radius. It was prompted by your post reviewing the NS Raptor and how twist can be used to initiate short radius turns.

My last time on the hill I was moving my knees together and the turn radius was reducing. I've never hear of this effect, but was going to try this some more.

Last edited by cootcraig; 03-01-2013 at 08:08 AM. Reason: Not sure about the traversing
cootcraig is offline  
Old 03-01-2013, 10:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
t21
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: mt.
Posts: 463
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cootcraig View Post
I've been working on twist in 2 situations.

1) Initiating edge change. My cues have been twisting the leading foot to the new edge, with the trailing foot opposing the twist and then following to the tilt.

2) Directional control on traversing. My cue has been twisting the trailing foot to adjust direction with the leading foot opposing the twist to hold the desired edge tilt to hold the traverse.

Does that sound right?

I'm wanting advice on how to control turn radius. It was prompted by your post reviewing the NS Raptor and how twist can be used to initiate short radius turns.

My last time on the hill I was moving my knees together and the turn radius was reducing. I've never hear of this effect, but was going to try this some more.
is there a chance you can find a video of what you are asking? i'm curious too on what your saying but i'm more better at visual that written details
__________________
2011 Ride Antic 163
2011 Status Focus 158
NX2-AT
FUSE-AT
t21 is offline  
Old 03-02-2013, 08:22 AM   #6 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 22
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
That is it essentially. Don`t think of the back foot as "opposing"
so much as "lagging behind". If coming out of a turn or a traverse on
edge and transitioning to a new edge, then at first, yes the rear foot
is opposing the new twist because it it still maintaining pressure on
the "old" edge. But, if you were flat based, going into a new turn, you
would keep the rear foot flat as you twisted with the leading foot. It
is a One Two kind of thing.
"lagging behind" - That is helpful, particularly as I'm working on timing, speeding up and
building the muscle memory. I'm also working on pressure transfer to leading
foot and then back foot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
Always do the actuall steering with the front foot. In a traverse,
I will generally maintain fairly even uphill edge pressure with the
back foot and either increase or descrease uphill edge pressure with
the front foot as neede to steer.
I will try it this way. The first run I've been lapping has a longish
traverse across the fall line. The first day it was busy and I was
having trouble, falling and being a hazard. I've improved, but still not
comfortable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
It`s the dynamic skidded turn. In order to really get these dynamic
so that you can really control speed through turn shape, there are
three components to master; flexion-extension, fore-aft movements and
upper-lower body separation. You use all three to get a super dynamic
turn in the steeps. In a dynamic skidded turn, you initiate the turn
by first twisting the board aggressively which leads to tilt and then
a little pivot thrown in all at the right time, makes for such a turn.
Very nice, succinct summary.

I've noticed the most upper-lower separation in 2 situations.
1) On groomed runs, to stay in a narrower corridor. or to slow down
when in traffic.
2) On fresh snow runs, making surfier turns banking more than edging.

Thank you for your help. You are a gentleman and a scholar.
cootcraig is offline  
Old 03-02-2013, 07:27 PM   #7 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 91
Default

IMO, I would just concentrate on working on that twist using the front knee. I find that most people that talk about initiating toe turns with their front foot end up locking out their ankle by pushing down too much, which blocks off a solid knee drive into the turn.

Try some toeside garlands, see if you can really flex that front ankle and knee to get back across the hill.

To simplify:

Start a toeside traverse.
Open your hip/shoulders down the hill and let the board go flat.
When pointing down the hill drive your hip and knee into the hill to get back onto toes.

If you have a hard time dont point the board all the way down the hill until you are comfortable with the movement.

When you get it right, you will feel pressure under your front foot AND between the shin and tongue of your boot.

Good luck, keep trucking.
MGD81 is offline  
Old 03-02-2013, 09:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 91
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
I disagree.

You're using a rotary movement as a primary rather than supportive body movement concept to try to generate twist. This movement primarily generates the board performance known as pivot. Twist is a board performance concept using the flexion and extension of the ankle joint to pressure your edge. trying to use rotary to achieve twist is not as efficient as using the ankle as the primary body movement.

This is not to say that adding rotary movements is inappropriate, indeed rotary incorporated into any turn enhances the efficiency and performance of the turn. But when discussing body movements as a cause of board performance, an effect, it is important to understand what does what.

In addition, any movement, including rotary, is more effective the close to the board it occurrs. Rather than open the hips, it is much more effective to roll the knee in the direction of the turn. For heelside, opening your stance by pulling the front knee toward the nose is the ideal rotary movement to make. For toeside, open your stance by pulling the back knee toward the tail.

All pressuring movements are best made by flexing (closing) or extending (opening) the ankle joint. Again, the closer to the board the movement is made, the more effective and efficient it is.
Actually, I was using a flexion of the knee joint to generate twist throught he board, the rotary movement of the hips is secondary and will usually follow, unless someone is trying to use their feet too much by pressing down on the ball of their foot.

Overuse of the calf muscles on toe side turn IMO is one of the biggest issues I face on a daily basis with intermediate riders, it mainly causes:
1 An edge initiation too early for the position of the hips over the effective edge.
2 A poor toeside posture (usually broken at the waist) which in turn kills people trying to ride steeps and bumps correctly.
If we are talking pressure I would take a guess that for most people it should be 75% boots taking the pressure and the last 25 using calf muscles by pressing down for refinement - obviously this changes dependant on setup stiffness/weight/strength.

If anyone doesnt believe me, try making some toeside turns pushing down as hard as you can on the balls of your feet - you can over-analyse all you want, the proof really is in the pudding.

As for rotating the knee on heelside, i agree, but I am talking toeside. I am trying to isolate a movement, not confuse the rider.

Lastly, twist from rotary is by FAR the most powerful method, so powerful infact that you dont have to move your feet at all and twist will occur if your upper body/hips are rotated.

Again, if you dont believe me we can go on the steeps and make some heelside carves. You can use your feet and stay in alignment and I will rotate the shit out of my hips and upper body.
MGD81 is offline  
Old 03-03-2013, 12:34 AM   #9 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: From Mt. Hood to Mt Baker
Posts: 18
Default My opinion

I like what several of you are saying, i do disagree with some as well. I think my advice here will fall somewhere in-between everyone elses. After i write what i would do to try and adjust turn radius, i will respond to several other people on this thread.

I would move back to garlands, this task allows to board to seek the fall line (point downhill), then turn back across the hill staying on the same edge the entire time. If you do several of these in a row it makes the shape of Christmas garlands in the snow. So yes you will only be going one direction over and over again, then you change edges and go the other direction.

Alright, so how to do garlands properly (or how i do them):
-Keep your shoulder in line with your board for all of this-
Toeside: First start off in a sideslip to find a great toeside stance, do this by bending your knees, allowing your ankles to flex (aka collapse, avoid pushing down on your toes as this will extend your ankles), relax into the shin of your boots, now notice how if you push your hips over your toe edge (like your standing at a urinal) you have plenty of weight on your edge, and as a result have great control, cool, maintain this position. To allow the board to seek the fall line (aka point downhill) roll your knee out towards the nose of your board, and gently lower your heel, (keep your knee bent, or even better bend it more during this part) this will flatten out the board under your front foot and you will pretty quickly point down the fall line. Then when you have reached a desired speed, drive your front knee toward your pinky toe until the board is coming across the hill, then drive both knees into the shins of your boots to slow down. then repeat, til your extremely comfortable with it

Heelside: Start from a stop, or barely moving on your heelside with your board across the hill. To get the board to seek the fall line, relax your front ankle, and add weight to your front foot by flexing your front knee this should also keep your shin in contact with your boot here. wait for the board to point directly down the hill. Then roll your front knee out (towards the nose) and pull up on your front toes, then both toes til your across the hill almost stopped. then repeat, til your extremely comfortable with it

Linking turns: Now that i am sure you understand all of that. To make shorter and shorter radius turns. Exaggerate the main points from above, and speed up the timing.
So, from toeside to heelside, exaggerate rolling your front knee out (while flexing it to add weight to it) and start pulling up on your front foot toes, as soon as you feel the board start to steer across the fall line pull up on your back toes as well. Make sure to look across the hill here.
Now from heel to toe, relax (aka flatten out) your front foot, while bending your front knee to add more weight to it, immediately start driving your front knee toward your pinky toe, as the board steers across the hill do the same with your back knee make sure to be looking across (NOT down) hill here

If that works, great have fun. If its still not fast enough, think about making every movement a little more powerful, and make it happen a little faster (imagine the difference between stomping on the gas pedal and slowly depressing it to the floor, it ends at the same place, but it got there faster), now make the next move sooner as well (speeding up the timing). If you know you are doing all of that and you still want it to be faster, add a slight steering with the hip (like theres a light on your hip facing your nose, and you want to steer with it), but do NOT let your shoulders follow (keep them in line), and be sure to only use this with the proper ankle and knee movement i talked about above...

Hope this helps!
-------------------
Responses to others
MGD81: I like alot of what you said, especially about knee steering on toeside. However i do not like to turn the shoulders to get pointed down the fall line. Will it work? Yes, but it will not be as efficient, as fast, or as balanced as it could be, and will cause other problems later on in the turn, and later on in snowboarding

Snowolf: Your knowledge here is also your downfall in my opinion. Everything you said is right on. However i don't think cootcraig on day 5 needs the techie definitions, or big words, or dynamic turns. Your explanations of movements and performances and blending them is amazing, impressive really. I'm just not so sure he will be able to put this mass of knowledge into action. Save the AASI terms for clinics, keep it simpler for lessons.

Example: I could say to utilize plantarflexion with your rear foot and dorsiflexion with your front foot to fully use twist to initiate a heelside turn, then flex both of your anterior tibialus muscles through the completion of the turn making sure to use more angulation than inclination. But who would that help?
Bear5001 is offline  
Old 03-03-2013, 12:52 AM   #10 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: From Mt. Hood to Mt Baker
Posts: 18
Default Here

Just to match the tone put down earlier. Yes lets start a new thread, where we can measure our dicks, because this is no longer helping cootcraig. This is about flexing our brains/muscles, strutting and posturing, in short measuring our dicks... But alright im game, i got a big one

Flexing the knee joint CAN create twist, but only if you ankles, and hips move too. I can flex/extend my knees all day and keep a flat board, if i so choose. If you want to create twist, more is going on. As far as pushing down on your toes on toeside, this is a big problem with alot of riders, not denying that, but it doesn't prove your point about rotary at all. After you mention that you say you are isolating a movement. Great! But you forget to say what movement and if flexion in the knee is the only one, without moving ankles, or hips, thats not very good advice. Prove it? Well the proof is in the pudding. Stand up from your computer right now (get away from all sharp objects) stand in your snowboard stance, now only bend your knees (NO you cannot flex your ankles, or bend at all at the waist because i am trying to isolate a movement here. You fell over didn't you? you should have beacuse its like doing a wall sit without a wall, you fall.

Now as far as rotary on steeps, and in bumps... You are cordially invited to come to any mountain, and blow out especially heelside, because your beloved rotary has added too much pressure to the effective edge at a given time, it cannot hold, and throws you to the outside of the turn. Ever have a heelside turn that chatters? (we all have dont lie). Thats your beloved rotary at work. Stay balanced, stay aligned, use your sidecut for what its worth...

I propose a few guidelines for you MGD81
1: Don't be a dick, EVER
2:If you cant follow #1 at least be right, or be funny.
Bear5001 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:13 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
VerticalSports
Baseball Forum Golf Forum Boxing Forum Snowmobile Forum
Basketball Forum Soccer Forum MMA Forum PWC Forum
Football Forum Cricket Forum Wrestling Forum ATV Forum
Hockey Forum Volleyball Forum Paintball Forum Snowboarding Forum
Tennis Forum Rugby Forums Lacrosse Forum Skiing Forums