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Old 03-11-2013, 06:44 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
Being on the front foot and windshield wipering the turn is inefficient because the rider is generally not driving the board through a tight turn but is simply pivoting the tail while still maintaining the original trajectory. If braking is the goal, this is also an inefficient braking maneuver. Shifting aft and flexing the rear leg to slash will slow and stop you much more quickly than having all of your weight on the nose and skidding a very light tail.
Ohh, ok. I think I get this. Is this (bold) also the same motion you use to spray around snow?
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:54 PM   #22 (permalink)
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OK, for me I think it would help to clarify ruddering vs. pivot turns vs. wipering...

I think of ruddering as pushing your tail around with your back leg while in the back seat. Perhaps accompanied by arm wagging counter-rotation and perhaps a phantom girlfriend. It is ugly, inefficient, and generally bad. With the caveat that I basically rudder when riding in really deep snow.

After that I'm not so clear (and I'm probably wrong about ruddering). So, anyone (Snowolf) (yes I'm digging parentheses today) care to explain why wipering is bad? When I say wipering I think it's the same as pivot turns. Now I've seen the Snowolf vid about pivot turns and it was almost more hop-switching or up-unweighting??? That is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about weighting your front leg and pivoting your board around.

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Originally Posted by Donutz View Post
Don't know if it is or it isn't, actually. I just know it works for me. I'm not a certified instructor by any means, so I'm always a little nervous about handing out advice.

Last edited by OldDog; 03-11-2013 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:58 PM   #23 (permalink)
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OK, I think I get where my wires were crossed. I never said anything about staying on your nose the whole time. It's lean forward, swing tail, shift back to more centered, skid, repeat in the other direction. I don't think I could stay on my nose and just swing back and forth if my life depended on it...

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Not so much "improper" as it is inefficient. Tree riding, good tree riding, requires the rider to be dynamic. Anytime we move into a position and stay there, we become static and our riding becomes less effective. Fore-aft movements are fundamental to dynamic riding and getting aft at turn cometion allows us to tighten out turn radius. If you park yourself at the nose and need to shift aft, it delays the board response because you have to shift all it the way from the nose instead of from center.

Being on the front foot and windshield wipering the turn is inefficient because the rider is generally not driving the board through a tight turn but is simply pivoting the tail while still maintaining the original trajectory. If braking is the goal, this is also an inefficient braking maneuver. Shifting aft and flexing the rear leg to slash will slow and stop you much more quickly than having all of your weight on the nose and skidding a very light tail.

To see this for yourself, try doing some slash turns. First, do your high speed slash with your weight forward and back leg extended and notice how you carry speed through the slash. Next, do a slash by, by initiating the turn with torsional twist of the front foot while dropping very low through flexion. As soon as the board initiates the aggressive turn, shift your weight all of the way aft and collapse the rear leg. Not only will your slash throw up a bigger wall of snow, but you stop on a dime.

In tight trees where you may need to use this slash braking turn, you want it to have an immediate, powerful effect. Staying on the front foot the whole time inhibits your ability to fully utilize the board's performance capabilities. Be centered as your default position and shift forward and aft at the optimum times, flex and extend aggressively at the optimum times and keep your body always moving.
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:37 PM   #24 (permalink)
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what snowprofessor, who's a level 3 and on ed staff, is getting at is utilizing upper body and lower body separation. he uses the wipering motion to simplify things and explain it in terms a non certified instructor would understand. He's essentially making pivot turns. in moguls it's key to have independent leg flexion/extension, being dynamic and having upper body and lower body separation. where kicking your back leg out isn't the preferred method in carving, it's usually needed in moguls.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:18 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I don't know why, but I've never thought of doing hard slash-braking in the trees. Not that hard a concept either. I'm going to try that next time I'm in the trees.

I used to own a cat that never realized she could jump up onto counters until we babysat a friend's cat who showed mine it was possible. This is what bugs me about riding on my own all the time. I'm missing stuff -- possibly fairly obvious stuff.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:34 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Awesome write-up! So is this a necessary step in progression or should I start trying to down-unweight? Thanks!

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Pivot turns or "wipering" does sort of work but it is still not an ideal method for any terrain, even for moguls. The up unweight that the rider is doing does release the edge and allow the tail to be kicked around. When this is happening, the board is no longer engaged with the snow and then has to reengage each time. Additionally, an up unweight throws the rider up off of the snow which moves the CG higher and makes the rider more top heavy.

These pivot turns wipering the tail are a natural progression for the intermediate rider and it is a way to get into the mogul and start learning to negotiate them but they should not be considered as the final method for advanced riding. When the terrain becomes more challenging, these turns will fail the rider.

Pivoty turns can also be accomplished by combining rotary movements, board twist and tilt, flexion-extension and fore-aft movements. Learning to down unweight is a critical step to moving beyond the intermediate level of riding and successfully dealing with advanced terrain. A down unweight, releases the edge quicker and keeps the board engaged with the snow through the turn process nearly consistently. Instead of swishing the tail around, board twist and tilt is used to carve/scarve the turn through the moguls. The rotary movements such as anticipatory rotation and even counter will pivot the board more effectively and efficiently than a wipering movement and it does not release the edge. The fore-aft movement also greatly increases the rate of turn and makes an already short radius turn even tighter.

The diving forward at turn initiation is absolutely correct, but this is not so the rider can hop the tail around. The forward dive increases the rider`s ability to twist the nose of the board more forcefully and initiate the turn quicker and get the the board tilted onto a very high edge angle sooner.

The aft shift, does two things. One, it moves the rider`s weight along the engaged edge to coincide with the spot that the greatest amount of lateral force is placed upon the board through the turn, thus increasing edge hold and effectiveness. Two, it allows the rider to "swing" their board around their CG which through the aft shift, has slowed it`s motion down the hill and provided more time to get the board through the turn and across the fall line. In the case of mogul, through the trough before climbing up onto the downhill bump.

The flexion, if done briskly creates the unweight. Instead of throwing the rider out into space away from the hill as in the case of the up unweight, this throws the rider down toward the snow, placing their CG closer to the board. Extension plays a huge role in dynamic riding. When you extend, you are effective pushing the board down into the snow. This added force increases the effectiveness of the sidecut resulting in a tighter turning radius and maintaining a decambered board or in the case of rocker, increasing the rocker. Both of which deepen the sidecut and tighten the turn.

In the up unweighted wiper turn, the rider not only releases their edge hold, but has fully recambered the board or in the case of rocker, reduced the rocker and shallowed their sidecut which results in a more elongated turn radius which is the opposite of what you want in this terrain. Generally the wiper turn is the result of something else not being done as effectively as it needed to be. The rider wiper turns, because he has not other option due to not effectively using a better technique.

In general, you will typically see these windshield wiper turns in intermediate riders. So much so that AASI refers to them as "intermediate turns" The rider has learned that they can up unweight and throw their weight onto their front foot and momentarily make the tail unweighted. Using a push/pull of the back leg, they can pivot the board, then set the edge back down by getting center again. Generally, their fore-aft movement is really just a fore-center movement.

When a rider does this up unweighted wiper turn, they release most of their edge hold to initiate the turn and then have to reestablish the edge hold. This is a big reason why intermediate riders struggle with learning to carve and not skid out on steeper terrain. It requires less force to maintain edge hold in a turn than it does to reestablish it. These wiper turns work okay on intermediate terrain, but fail on advanced terrain where edge hold must be established early and maintained through the turn. Disengaging the edge to wiper turn on advanced terrain results in a failure to successfully reengage the edge and the board washes out in the bottom of the turn.

Wiper turns in general are bad even in gentle terrain because they rely on pivot. Pivot exposes the board`s edge to edge catches. The number one cause of catastrophic high speed edge catches of the intermediate rider is the ruddering wiper turn.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:38 PM   #27 (permalink)
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snowolf i agree w/ 100% of what you said...for someone that is ready for that step. but the CASI instructor and snowprofessor are teaching an intermediate lesson. i believe the pivot turns do have their place. not all the time, but in this case that's how i would begin a new mogul lesson. well that and independent leg action to keep the board on the snow.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:43 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Snowolf, thanks for the explanation!
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:54 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowolf View Post
You will see many riders with their back hand sticking straight out over their toe edge like they are waving to the crowd or have their arm around their invisible girlfriend. Not only does this look retarded, it is a rotary movement and it makes the board want to pivot heelside.
Nothing constructive to add but this made me laugh because it's true. It looks retarded. Everyone stop doing this pls.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:55 PM   #30 (permalink)
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again i agree and i don't teach the falling leaf or side slip either. what i'm getting at is that we try and have our students stay "stacked" over their board when they ride. with the pivot drill (keeping your shoulders parallel w/ the fall line) it teaches the student that's it's ok to separate their lower body from their upper. perhaps we're just more relaxed here in the central division but i believe we're getting at the same goal...i'm just taking a detour from your path. over the past few years i've been told to dumb it down a bit. i do like the don't teach something they have to unlearn though.
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