Scorpioned while flat basing and now I can't anymore - Page 7 - Snowboarding Forum - Snowboard Enthusiast Forums
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:17 AM   #61 (permalink)
jtg
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I'm not looking for tips on how to wrecklessly bomb a run on a flat base. ... I can't even safely get speed to make it up a flat section on a flat base ... That's the reason for the question.
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Is flat basing to make it across a flat section or build up speed to make it up a hill appropriate? I say yes it is but a prudent rider uses this as a tool with a specific purpose.
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Which is why in that post and others I have advised against it.

Last edited by jtg; 03-13-2013 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:21 AM   #62 (permalink)
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yes you can flat base to make it across a flat section or build up speed. but you have to have excellent board control and be a very good rider to do this. which is why you should usually keep pressure on an edge. at LEAST while you are still working on getting across flats without catching an edge.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:32 AM   #63 (permalink)
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I struggle with this too. On narrow cat tracks I try to keep a minimal edge without washing off speed but invariably I lose speed and struggle to get through. I'm always super wary of flat basing at slower speeds.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:52 AM   #64 (permalink)
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if you are flat basing, you are "out of control" until you re-engage an edge. simply because you can't control a board without its edge.
You can use tiny amounts pressure/board twist to control the board (with the neutral position of the board being completely flat), no need to ever engage an edge (you can rip out the edge and it will still work fine). IMO, on good snow/packed powder, with a bit of experience, it is safe to run completely flat based. On hard stuff (where the board wouldn't leave a track), that doesn't work nearly as well.

I flat base quite a lot going 45mph and have a completely straight track that's 1 board width (trails having long flat or uphill sections). I've never caught an edge on good snow (knock on wood...).

On hard snow/hard pack, I rarely ride completely flat (use at least a bit of edge pressure). Yes, I have caught edges on hard stuff. The board is more likely to pivot and there is a lot less control response for small amounts of pressure/board twist.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:59 AM   #65 (permalink)
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There are 4 board performance concepts we use as riders. They are twist, tilt, pivot and pressure. Just like riding a box, we use no edging movements to flat base so that takes away twist and tilt. Without those two, we cannot change our direction of travel (turn)
I disagree with you on that (depending on the snow conditions). As long as the board sinks in slightly (snow reasonably soft), twist works fine for small amounts of steering (without edge engagement).

Last edited by behi; 03-13-2013 at 01:35 AM.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:15 AM   #66 (permalink)
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I am not going to play games with you here. Now you seem to be nit picking to argue a point. My answer to your question was straight forward. Flat base as a technique with a purpose such as making it across a flat area or up a hill. Until you have improved as a competent rider, try to avoid doing it for long stretches. The fact that you ate shit is a result of you not having the technique mastered and I was trying to help you. Take the advice and progress into being able to do it right and know when you can or need to or don't and keep eating shit; your call.
No, sorry, genuinely confused. You basically said not to do it, then you said it has its place for those situations, then I said I intended to use it for those situations, then you said not to do it again. Now you say I don't have the technique, and that is why I ate shit, which I acknowledge, and is the reason I'm asking.

SO WHAT IS THE DAMN TECHNIQUE TO DO IT IN APPROPRIATE SITUATIONS WITHOUT EATING SHIT?

All of the debate in this thread is about whether or not you should, when you should, whether its even possible, as well as a bunch of insults. No one except wrathfuldiety and ETM have even tried to explain the technique. Edit: And now, you, have finally tried explaining the technique in your last post. Thanks. That's all I was asking. And behi added some tips too.

To recap:

-Keep shoulders aligned (boarder cross guys seem to break this rule the whole time with open shoulders, so kinda confused, but ok)
-Easier to do in softer snow than harder snow
-Easier to do at higher speeds than slow on a cat track/flat
-Keep ankles loose
-Auto-correcting micro-adjustments via pressure changes come naturally with practice
-Keep weight forward (both intuitive and confusing, because you don't catch edges if way in the back seat, like tail pressing/buttering)
-Use counter-rotation with any available body part if the back wants to swing out and catch
-True flatbasing is a unicorn that only ETM and timmytard have seen
-ETM and timmytard are sinners

Last edited by jtg; 03-13-2013 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:20 AM   #67 (permalink)
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As for the physics of how it is possible, the gyroscopic effect known as rigidity in space from forward inertia is a powerfully stabilizing force and an object like a snowboard and rider in motion resists motion in other planes.
That doesn't make sense. For a gyroscopic effect you need a gyroscope - something that rotates. There is no stabilization from inertia against rotation or movement in other planes whatsoever.

If I were to speculate, I would say the extra stability at higher speed comes from less rotation per distance traveled (if there is some disturbance), so any pivoting has a better chance of auto-correcting.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:55 AM   #68 (permalink)
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-True flatbasing is a unicorn that only ETM and timmytard have seen
-ETM and timmytard are sinners
LOL I love it
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:43 AM   #69 (permalink)
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There you go video demonstration. I know the guy personally and ridden with him, he can flatbase while not going on an edge. He taught me just imagine your body being an arrow and just stand still. Imagine if you just let a snowboard go down a slope (with nobody standing on it), it will not catch an edge. Now add a person on the snowboard and just get into an athletic stance bend your knees and ankle and don't make unnecessary movements with your upper or lower body.

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Old 03-13-2013, 05:46 AM   #70 (permalink)
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I have mixed thoughts about this. In general I think we are splitting hairs here as the line between pressure and twist is fine and blurred. Is twist a cause or an effect? Answer is it is both. In the context we are using it, it is a result of pressure. So where does pressure end and tilt begin? Just my opinion here but when a rider applies enough pressure to start to torsionally twist the board, by definition it ceases to have a flat base ergo no longer "flat basing".

Twist can also be a cause. Increased twist leads to tilt; at least at one end of the board. In order to have twist, there is always some element of tilt otherwise, there isn't really any twist. I maintain my position that twist is not a part of flat basing rather pressure is. In soft snow, technically your edges are engaged when flat basing; both of them simultaneously since the entire board is below the surface.
Torsion/twist alone works (same amount of twist front/back) and it works without engaging the sidecut. Unfortunately, I don't have a board without sidecut.

In the name of snowboarding science, I created a tiny 'board' with a twist (pun intended) from a rectangular strip of tinplate. Rice had to do as running surface; the board was dragged by putting a needle in a hole slightly forward of the center. The 'board' does indeed want to turn according to the twist - no sidecut needed. Pressure should be the same, front and back are twisted the same amount. (I verified that no off-center hole is the cause by twisting the 'board' the other way - it turns in the other direction.)
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