steep hill: carving vs. sliding - Page 4 - Snowboarding Forum

cifex · 12-12-2008, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alasdairm

this makes no sense to me at all. when i want to turn left on a bike, i do not turn the wheel to the right. i turn it to the left (left side in).

i agree with oneplankawanka - the bike analogy is, in this context, a simple one which works well.

alasdair

It's weird to get it at first, but once you understand it, you'll realize that you already knew. You just don't know that you know.

12-12-2008, 01:42 PM

i think you are overthinking a simple concept. oneplanka... and i are talking about analogies which help beginners understand the importance of front foot steering. on a bicycle you steer with the front wheel and the analogy, in this context, holds up perfectly well. the counter-steering issue is irrelevant.

alasdair

Grizz · 12-12-2008, 03:01 PM

I can see both sides but factor in the speed, we were talking about a beginner turn under about 5kmh.

The biker would not be able to counter steer at 5kmh. They haven't built up enough momentum for centripetal force to keep them upright when they tip the bike over. If the center of mass has no offset to the tires you will be steering in to a turn not counter steering.

Under 5kmh a bike steers like a tricycle or a snowboard. Once the bike is up to cruising speed, I can see how a little counter steer at initation and a lot of CM offset will be the major turning components.

CIFEX am I right in thinking that counter steer is just a twitch or flick right before leaning the bike over? Because once the bike is tipped over then you will be steering in the direction of the turn.

12-12-2008, 03:22 PM

I raced mountain bikes for a few years and never did I initiate any turn with counter steering. Counter steering is used when the rear wheel(s) slip. I initiate a left turn on a bicycle by turning the bar to the left and if my rear wheel slips, I then counter steer to the right to keep the bike headed in the intended direction of travel.. We use counter steering the same way whether it be two of four wheels... Counter steering does not translate well when comparing the performance characteristics of a snowoboard vs. a bicycle or motor bike. I even conceptualize using counter steering on a bike to initiate a turn... anymore thoughts???

cifex · 12-12-2008, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grizz

CIFEX am I right in thinking that counter steer is just a twitch or flick right before leaning the bike over? Because once the bike is tipped over then you will be steering in the direction of the turn.

Yes. When you flick the handlebar opposite the direction you want to go, the momentum of the frame keeps pushing forward but the traction of the tire causes it to "trip" and fall into the turn.

cifex · 12-12-2008, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneplankawanka

I raced mountain bikes for a few years and never did I initiate any turn with counter steering. Counter steering is used when the rear wheel(s) slip. I initiate a left turn on a bicycle by turning the bar to the left and if my rear wheel slips, I then counter steer to the right to keep the bike headed in the intended direction of travel.. We use counter steering the same way whether it be two of four wheels... Counter steering does not translate well when comparing the performance characteristics of a snowoboard vs. a bicycle or motor bike. I even conceptualize using counter steering on a bike to initiate a turn... anymore thoughts???

You are confusing countersteering with another concept. I do know what you're referring to. (when a car is in a drift and you steer into the direction that it is sliding to maintain control). I'm not sure what that is called but the concept I am talking about only occurs on two wheeled vehicles with round tires. You do in fact initiate a turn using countersteering while mountain biking, but only on hard pack.

Here is the wikipedia article. Perhaps it explains better than I do.
Countersteering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

cifex · 12-12-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alasdairm

i think you are overthinking a simple concept. oneplanka... and i are talking about analogies which help beginners understand the importance of front foot steering. on a bicycle you steer with the front wheel and the analogy, in this context, holds up perfectly well. the counter-steering issue is irrelevant.

alasdair

Yes. You are probably right. For the purposes it was used, it does make sense. Splitting hairs....

Grizz · 12-12-2008, 07:00 PM

I've been thinking about this awhile longer.

The concept of counter steering only applies if you are traveling in a straight path and then making a turn. If you are flowing directly from one turn into the next it doesn't exist. Some kind of oversteer to load the board or bike might.

12-13-2008, 10:56 AM

gentlemen.. I appreciate all your input...Its an interesting conversation... cifex you explained your ideas clearly, but I digress. I have useed counter steering to enter a high speed left banked turn on my mountain bike; counter steering is necessary to counter act the centrifigal (sp) forces present.. I was wrong when I said I never used counter steering to enter a HIGH SPEED turn... I had a chance to lay in bed last night thinking about this.... I was wrong.

Cifex, thanks for posting that Wiki link, interesting an informative..

I take counter steering to literally mean steering or a steering movement in the opposite direction of the intended travel.?? Ha ha before I read the wiki post??

DragonXero13 · 12-20-2008, 07:18 PM

While I can't explain the scientific evidence of counter-steering on a two wheeled bike and the gyroscope and all that, I can confirm that you do push the handle bar in the direction you want to go. When I ride my motorcycle, I'll use my hand/arm to push the handle bar in the direction I want to go. While doing this, I'll put pressure on my pegs and my gas tank and lean in the direction I'm going.

12-12-2008, 03:01 PM	#33 (permalink)
Grizz Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Junction of 84 and 35 Posts: 1,023	I can see both sides but factor in the speed, we were talking about a beginner turn under about 5kmh. The biker would not be able to counter steer at 5kmh. They haven't built up enough momentum for centripetal force to keep them upright when they tip the bike over. If the center of mass has no offset to the tires you will be steering in to a turn not counter steering. Under 5kmh a bike steers like a tricycle or a snowboard. Once the bike is up to cruising speed, I can see how a little counter steer at initation and a lot of CM offset will be the major turning components. CIFEX am I right in thinking that counter steer is just a twitch or flick right before leaning the bike over? Because once the bike is tipped over then you will be steering in the direction of the turn. Last edited by Grizz; 12-12-2008 at 03:25 PM.

12-13-2008, 10:56 AM	#39 (permalink)
oneplankawanka Guest Posts: n/a	gentlemen.. I appreciate all your input...Its an interesting conversation... cifex you explained your ideas clearly, but I digress. I have useed counter steering to enter a high speed left banked turn on my mountain bike; counter steering is necessary to counter act the centrifigal (sp) forces present.. I was wrong when I said I never used counter steering to enter a HIGH SPEED turn... I had a chance to lay in bed last night thinking about this.... I was wrong. Cifex, thanks for posting that Wiki link, interesting an informative.. I take counter steering to literally mean steering or a steering movement in the opposite direction of the intended travel.?? Ha ha before I read the wiki post?? Last edited by oneplankawanka; 12-13-2008 at 10:59 AM.

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12-12-2008, 01:42 PM	#32 (permalink)
alasdairm Guest Posts: n/a	i think you are overthinking a simple concept. oneplanka... and i are talking about analogies which help beginners understand the importance of front foot steering. on a bicycle you steer with the front wheel and the analogy, in this context, holds up perfectly well. the counter-steering issue is irrelevant. alasdair

12-12-2008, 03:22 PM	#34 (permalink)
oneplankawanka Guest Posts: n/a	I raced mountain bikes for a few years and never did I initiate any turn with counter steering. Counter steering is used when the rear wheel(s) slip. I initiate a left turn on a bicycle by turning the bar to the left and if my rear wheel slips, I then counter steer to the right to keep the bike headed in the intended direction of travel.. We use counter steering the same way whether it be two of four wheels... Counter steering does not translate well when comparing the performance characteristics of a snowoboard vs. a bicycle or motor bike. I even conceptualize using counter steering on a bike to initiate a turn... anymore thoughts???

12-12-2008, 07:00 PM	#38 (permalink)
Grizz Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Junction of 84 and 35 Posts: 1,023	I've been thinking about this awhile longer. The concept of counter steering only applies if you are traveling in a straight path and then making a turn. If you are flowing directly from one turn into the next it doesn't exist. Some kind of oversteer to load the board or bike might.

12-20-2008, 07:18 PM	#40 (permalink)
DragonXero13 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 55	While I can't explain the scientific evidence of counter-steering on a two wheeled bike and the gyroscope and all that, I can confirm that you do push the handle bar in the direction you want to go. When I ride my motorcycle, I'll use my hand/arm to push the handle bar in the direction I want to go. While doing this, I'll put pressure on my pegs and my gas tank and lean in the direction I'm going.