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Cool!) Is it worth doing that more or I should just do it just to get an idea?
How to start Backcountry Riding.
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Amplid splitboard, Phantom Bindings, Atomic Blackland
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sending pm meow
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Here is some food for thought with getting into backcountry:
https://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/acc/acc_report.php?accfm=rep&acc_id=685
This is particularly concerning since this actually happened during an avalanche class.
https://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/acc/acc_report.php?accfm=rep&acc_id=685
This is particularly concerning since this actually happened during an avalanche class.
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I’d be very interested to read a fuller incident report and lessons learned from this if and when it becomes available; how awful for everyone involved. :sad:
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It looks like that to me. A bit of a bowl shape due to what appears to be a bench in front of it. I’m not sure exactly where this is or what the avy danger was there yesterday, but a large portion of the western co slopes are high danger today due to storm slab potential. Wonder if that was the problem for the day in question, too.
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316 Posts
Guys, what do you think of Airbag cylinders?
I have empty backcountry accessories cylinder that you cant carry through TSA. Can I have a full cylinder in the baggage?
It seems the only place that fills up those cylinders is diving shops and it costs $60-70. That's a lot, considering you have to have an empty one when you travel. On their website, they have lots of shops that should be refiling. I called some of them and many stopped refiling them due to insurance issues (if clap that they install won't work they can be sued).
Others said they never provided this service, to begin with. Kinda not sure if I need this bag anymore.
I have empty backcountry accessories cylinder that you cant carry through TSA. Can I have a full cylinder in the baggage?
It seems the only place that fills up those cylinders is diving shops and it costs $60-70. That's a lot, considering you have to have an empty one when you travel. On their website, they have lots of shops that should be refiling. I called some of them and many stopped refiling them due to insurance issues (if clap that they install won't work they can be sued).
Others said they never provided this service, to begin with. Kinda not sure if I need this bag anymore.
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316 Posts
daim, a person who died was buried under 2,5 meters of snow. Why would the instructor chose a place where 2 avalanches can be triggered.
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You can’t have a full cylinder in your bag as far as I know. Not sure where you are located, but the price you quote seems high considering I had mine filled at a local pnw dive shop for $5.
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That seems way high. I’ve not had to refill because I haven’t flown, but at most I paid $20 Canadian when I got my fill last year.
You definitely cannot take a full cylinder on an airplane.
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Usually somewhere between $5 and $20 to get a cylinder filled in the US. Dive shops are also generally cheaper. They just need the adapter to fill the cylinder. A phone call should verify that.
As far as the avalanche accident goes. That area where it happened has lots of micro features. It had also been very warm the day before and day of the accident. Definitely above freezing on Saturday. My truck read 38 degrees F at the summit of the pass. Lots of evidence of freeze thaw activity, and also signs of west slide activity on the sunnier slopes. I noted 2-3 point release slides starting in rocks and one tree'd slope. As you would expect. There was also what appeared to be a wet slab release just to the North of the pass, on the other side of the highway from where the accident happened.
Avalanche danger was rated as moderate on all aspects and all elevations for the day.
The biggest problems is, even with this warming and strengthening of the snow pack, the bottom 10-30cm of the snow pack is pretty much all facets. Sugar snow for those who don't know the term. That is just not going away anytime soon, though that warm cycle certainly helped. We have also had a persistent weak layer issue for weeks, though it had not been very reactive. It seems most likely this persistent weak layer is what failed. I would guess the group hit a thin layer in the overlying slab and triggered it. When the avalanche center talks about isolated pockets of concern, this seems to be a classic example. I certainly would not have expected this on the terrain they were traveling on. It is not very steep in that area, and there wasn't much going on to warn you that a slab like that on a slope that is not very sun exposed would go. All of this is just my observations, so don't take this as an official report. Hopefully just a little insight into the day. The provider is well regarded and this is obviously a tragic accident. I also talked to some of the guides who were in the area, but no one at the scene when the accident happened. They knew a tiny bit more, but info was still not solid, so I have nothing to share there. Waiting on the CAIC final report to see what they found. This will be a learning experience for pretty much every avalanche school in the US, if not North America.
Of note, in 2005 there was a person killed in a L2 avy class just outside of Aspen Highlands. I know there have been a few others previous to that. You can find the summary of that one on the CAIC's accident summary page from the 04-05 season.
As far as the avalanche accident goes. That area where it happened has lots of micro features. It had also been very warm the day before and day of the accident. Definitely above freezing on Saturday. My truck read 38 degrees F at the summit of the pass. Lots of evidence of freeze thaw activity, and also signs of west slide activity on the sunnier slopes. I noted 2-3 point release slides starting in rocks and one tree'd slope. As you would expect. There was also what appeared to be a wet slab release just to the North of the pass, on the other side of the highway from where the accident happened.
Avalanche danger was rated as moderate on all aspects and all elevations for the day.
The biggest problems is, even with this warming and strengthening of the snow pack, the bottom 10-30cm of the snow pack is pretty much all facets. Sugar snow for those who don't know the term. That is just not going away anytime soon, though that warm cycle certainly helped. We have also had a persistent weak layer issue for weeks, though it had not been very reactive. It seems most likely this persistent weak layer is what failed. I would guess the group hit a thin layer in the overlying slab and triggered it. When the avalanche center talks about isolated pockets of concern, this seems to be a classic example. I certainly would not have expected this on the terrain they were traveling on. It is not very steep in that area, and there wasn't much going on to warn you that a slab like that on a slope that is not very sun exposed would go. All of this is just my observations, so don't take this as an official report. Hopefully just a little insight into the day. The provider is well regarded and this is obviously a tragic accident. I also talked to some of the guides who were in the area, but no one at the scene when the accident happened. They knew a tiny bit more, but info was still not solid, so I have nothing to share there. Waiting on the CAIC final report to see what they found. This will be a learning experience for pretty much every avalanche school in the US, if not North America.
Of note, in 2005 there was a person killed in a L2 avy class just outside of Aspen Highlands. I know there have been a few others previous to that. You can find the summary of that one on the CAIC's accident summary page from the 04-05 season.
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That is a good question and I think most people who would offer an answer would be "Monday morning quarter-backing". It is very concerning to me, but I don't know the facts, so will hold-off speculating. I have been in the general area and have ridden a basin to the south, but have not been in this specific basin before.
edited to add:
I went to college relatively close to this area many years ago (majored in geology). One of our students did his senior seminar on avalanches in the San Juan Mountains and how slide danger related to aspect. His conclusion was that avy danger was approximately equal on north vs south (with east being greatest) but due to different reasons. One main point I remember is that the fact that the temperature crosses the freeze/thaw line so frequently was a big factor- this ties-in with Killclimbz's point above. This was many years ago and the understanding may have changed since then, but that's what I remember. Avalanches relate to geology because they affect how the mountainside erodes, due to removal of trees in certain areas, thus also influencing drainage in the summer time. They also can deposit loose talus in the runout zones, which can be spotted in the summer. I've looked at this exact slope in Google Earth since the slide occurred and the evidence is not very obvious here to me. I'm guessing that since it was skier triggered, it would happen probably not in the same place that a natural slide would occur since there are other areas in that same basin that look even more susceptible to an avalanche? The slope where the second (sympathetic) avalanche released from did look like the more obvious slope to slide to me. It's hard to know/predict everything, so in the guide/instructor's defense, I would have to hold off thinking that they made some obvious blunder.
Amplid splitboard, Phantom Bindings, Atomic Blackland
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Got @Extazy out on some almost boiler plate bluebird PNW concrete...and almost lost him down a little pitch while looking for a good steep place to dig an easy pit...he was in soft boots and me in hards...just walking along...and behind me Extazy was holding on to dear life and trying to jam his shovel in the boiler plate to keep from sliding off the planet...sorry about that. But he got a wee taste of Baker BC. Anyway he has a great crew who were not afraid of the less than ideal Baker conditions. Finished off the day with 2 runs in to Gunner's bowl and in to the canyon...and the gals crushed it. So Fun.
More relative for he Backcountry conversation, but I pay $30 a year for search and rescue insurance that includes $50,000 of heli insurance in addition to paying an extra $20 a month for accident insurance through my health care provider which covers a lot of these types of accidents with a larger deductible. The catch for the heli specific insurance is that it is associated with my Spot X Messenger so I have to initiate the SOS through the device in order to receive coverage, though, if it’s a hand off from a “rescue” (which I shouldn’t be charged for as a CO hunting license includes a small S&R fee) ,to an “ambulance” (you are usually considered “rescued” once in the helicopter), then my accident insurance should kick in with a high deductible.
The way I figure it, I spend so much time in the Backcountry doing high risk activities between snowboarding, Mtn Biking and hunting, that the statistics really accumulate against me over time to the point that some redundancy is likely wise.
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Nope. I even had a TSA guy who insisted to look into the cylinder as he didn't believe the gauge which showed that it's empty. (And as the valve needs a new seal after opening, I begun to carry replacement seals on later trips, until I gave up and bought a jetforce for US trips cos on the next trip another TSA guy didn't believethat the bag doesn'thave any pyrotechnics and held us up forever and we almost missed the flight)
According to Mammut, one can also refill at certain fire stations. Theh have a list of such stations on their homepage
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Just read the full report, very scary- even with a full crew digging, it took them 25 minutes to reach the buried victim
It took them a full 50 minutes to remove the skier from the snow.
other issues noted: relief shaded maps not matching reality,
Avy airbags not deployed and not working.
It took them a full 50 minutes to remove the skier from the snow.
other issues noted: relief shaded maps not matching reality,
Avy airbags not deployed and not working.
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Everyone stepping over the roll to keep eyes on the skier was another huge issue. Of course you want someone with eyes on that person, but one person is more than enough. At worst, it should have been two swept. Once that first skier is down in a "safe" zone, they can do the spotting from below. I have to read through it again, but given the approach, radios for all may have been handy. As you well know.
Airbags, time it took. A lot of small mistakes that added to to a terrible tragedy. Really sucks.
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