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Discussion Starter #1
Spent almost 2 hours with this guy today.

We worked on stance/alignment, steeps & moguls, and carving...

Probably a bit too much for one day, but as this is my first season and today was my 18th day on snow I wanted him to watch me ride and in different situations. We only worked on carving for the last 30 minutes or so.

Unfortunately all I really got from this was what I need to work on.

Apparently;

I should ride more "cowboy" for independent leg extension and stability on steeps and bumps. That and I tend to slouch over or lean forward too much and I need to stand up chest out. I also ride too "open" toe side.

I need to get out of the back seat and shift my pivot point to my front foot/nose to avoid too much speed and turn more quickly. He basically had me trying to throw my arm to initiate my turn while pivoting on my front foot while I wiper with my rear.

As for the carving, I improved a little but we were on a mellow green with 4 - 6" of fresh and it was really tough to dig a narrow trench. He had me grabbing indie heel side and reaching back with both hands (chest way out) toe side. It felt awkward as hell but he said it was helping.

I think a little more speed would have helped.

In any event, anyone have any thoughts regarding my list of "challenges"? He said something about using a bamboo staff to correct my open toe side stance? That would be a next lesson kind of thing.

Basically I need to improve my alignment and get out of the back seat. Pretty standard problems from what I understand. Any good vids, drills, techniques to help with these 2 specific issues?

Thanks!
 

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Spent almost 2 hours with this guy today.

We worked on stance/alignment, steeps & moguls, and carving...

Probably a bit too much for one day, but as this is my first season and today was my 18th day on snow I wanted him to watch me ride and in different situations. We only worked on carving for the last 30 minutes or so.

Unfortunately all I really got from this was what I need to work on.

Apparently;

I should ride more "cowboy" for independent leg extension and stability on steeps and bumps. That and I tend to slouch over or lean forward too much and I need to stand up chest out. I also ride too "open" toe side.

I need to get out of the back seat and shift my pivot point to my front foot/nose to avoid too much speed and turn more quickly. He basically had me trying to throw my arm to initiate my turn while pivoting on my front foot while I wiper with my rear.

As for the carving, I improved a little but we were on a mellow green with 4 - 6" of fresh and it was really tough to dig a narrow trench. He had me grabbing indie heel side and reaching back with both hands (chest way out) toe side. It felt awkward as hell but he said it was helping.

I think a little more speed would have helped.

In any event, anyone have any thoughts regarding my list of "challenges"? He said something about using a bamboo staff to correct my open toe side stance? That would be a next lesson kind of thing.

Basically I need to improve my alignment and get out of the back seat. Pretty standard problems from what I understand. Any good vids, drills, techniques to help with these 2 specific issues?

Thanks!
Typical beginner growing pains.

Oh, and good luck with that Raptor in that case... :rolleyes:
 

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"cowboy"? that means duck stance right? like 15/-15 or whatever, i guess that explain why the ones i see that rides real well out here on bumps,steeps,etc all are in duck stances.hmm......:dunno:
 

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"cowboy"? that means duck stance right? like 15/-15 or whatever, i guess that explain why the ones i see that rides real well out here on bumps,steeps,etc all are in duck stances.hmm......:dunno:
No, cowboy stance refers to pushing the knees out laterally (towards the tips of the board). Duck stance makes that easier, but does not mean the same.
 

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Literally had all the same things pointed out to me 2 weekends ago when I did a snowboard clinic, like exactly the same. It is nice to have someone follow you around now and then and point these things out. I had thought that I was shaken most those bad habits.... turns out, not so much. So me, 42 days on snow, and in my second season am still doing those things. Always something to work on!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
It's funny cuz I've been working on the open stance and weight forward. I rode around for most of a day with my lead hand on my thigh trying to correct that open shoulder. As for being in the backseat, I think that has gotten worse rather than better the more pow and bumps I ride. I focus on leaning forward and attacking groomers, but moguls and trees freak me out a little.

Good things to be aware of anyway. I may take another lesson next weekend to focus just on stance. Either way I'll be aware and try to improve.

Literally had all the same things pointed out to me 2 weekends ago when I did a snowboard clinic, like exactly the same. It is nice to have someone follow you around now and then and point these things out. I had thought that I was shaken most those bad habits.... turns out, not so much. So me, 42 days on snow, and in my second season am still doing those things. Always something to work on!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for the reply.

I don't think he was trying to get me to carve all the time with a grab. I think he was just trying to exaggerate the feeling of riding your sidecut locked in.

As for wipering, he was definitely trying to get me to load my front foot, anticipate with my upper body, and swing or wiper my tail around to turn between moguls. I think his ultimate goal was to get me out of the backseat in moguls...?

Pulling the knees apart does help the rider with independent flexion and extension and provides a more stable platform while also creating more overall "cushioning" to the ride.

Bending at the waist creates a lot of out of balance conditions. It moves your CG out to the side of the board instead of stacked vertically over the effective edge. Additionally, while some feel this aids in the toeside turn, they forget that when you bend at the waist, it tends to shove your ass way out over the heel edge so now you have two CG`s outside of the board`s moment envelop that tend to counteract each other. Lastly, being bent over at the waist, affects your visual sight picture of your riding environment. The horizon line is always tilted and this visual does affect your sense of balance. Ride so that as you look forward, the horizon line remains level.

Riding open is a huge inhibitor to toeside because it is a countered stance. The body wants to naturally realign itself and when you ride with a twist in the lower spine to face froward, it creates rotary forces that favor a heelside turn so the rider has to fight these rotary forces in order to initiate and maintain any toeside turn.

We tend to this because as bipeds, we naturally face forward when moving. The sliding sideways concept is an acquired skill that does not come natural so people inadvertently face forward.

Some drills to help train your body to ride in good alignment are to hold your pant leg or jacket hem with the back hand so it does not stick out in front of you in what we call the "mystery date" riding. You will see many riders with their back hand sticking straight out over their toe edge like they are waving to the crowd or have their arm around their invisible girlfriend. Not only does this look retarded, it is a rotary movement and it makes the board want to pivot heelside.

While we don't want to get into the habit of leading with the upper body, a drill that I have found very helpful to break this countered stance (facing forward) is to hold the front arm up as if you were driving with your wrist resting on top of the wheel. When you turn, turn the steering wheel toeside and heelside. The hand "on top of the wheel" moves in the direction of the turn. This trains the body to POSITION the shoulders appropriately for each turn and makes your riding more efficient.




Fore-aft movements are HUGE for dynamic riding and mastering technical steeps and skid free carving. Consider your centered stance between the feet as your neutral; the place you always return to. At turn initiation, shift your hips and upper body toward the nose to weight the front foot. This makes your edge pressuring movements with the front foot (which for any skidded turn ALWAYS should initiate the turn) more effective. As you steer through the turn, you should slowly be shifting aft and time the movement so that at turn apex you are centered at neutral again. Through the bottom of the turn, keep moving aft so that you move your weight along the sidecut rearward to coincide with the point along the sidecut that has the most lateral force upon it through the turn. This maintains optimum edge hold and reduces chatter through "forced" flexion of the back leg.

CASI and AASI differ with regard to the use of the arms. CASI tends to advocate leading with an upper body rotary movement while AASI advocates all lower body movements and a quiet upper body. No worries, there are multiple ways to achieve good riding. One thing though that I think contradicts both CASI and AASI is this concept of "wipering" with the back foot. Either you misunderstood the coach or he is using some pretty unorthodox techniques. Generally, both organizations stress not "wipering" or "ruddering" the tail of the board as this is bad form and can cause some real difficulties in riding. Either initiate with the front foot through torsional twist as in skidding, or use tilt with both feet simultaneously as in carving. Avoid getting into the habit of "wipering".




First off, 4-6 inches of fresh powder is enough to make carving superfluous and difficult. We generally do not carve in powder and I can easily understand why you had trouble leaving a narrow trench.

As for the grabbing, okay I guess, but it sounds like an over complication of what is essentially a fairly simple riding task to learn. Basic carving should be done with inclination (leaning). The body is fairly static and fully aligned with the board. The rider should be in their loose, athletic stance and once the board is moving at fairly decent speed (about that of a fast sprint), simply lean the entire body toeside allowing both feet to tilt the board on edge. Foe heelside, the body is leaned back over the heel edge with just a slight sitting movement. The turns will me large radius and the key is to not rush the turn but to ride it out.

Later, when you start getting into dynamic carving, angulation of the lower body joints is used to tilt the board and upper-lower body separation is used. It sounds like he was trying to teach you dynamic carving before you may have mastered basic carving. The whole grabbing thing is new to me and must be a CASI thing.
 

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Rides Caturdayz
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You sure he's not trying to get you to push against the side of the bump? Basically the arm (Frisbee) motion should be level and independent from lower body. The motion ends at where you want go on the new edge (hence leading with upper body and moving with lower.) They want you to make that movement right before you initiate the turn on your feet.

In the bumps they also want you to use the rear foot to push against side of the bump to gain more traction and area to turn.

At least that's the way I've been taught under CASI instructors.
 

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Generally, both organizations stress not "wipering" or "ruddering" the tail of the board as this is bad form and can cause some real difficulties in riding. Either initiate with the front foot through torsional twist as in skidding, or use tilt with both feet simultaneously as in carving. Avoid getting into the habit of "wipering".
Hey Snowolf,

Could you explain a little bit why wipering/ruddering is bad? I saw this alternate explanation for getting started on linking turns and it seemed like a helpful idea (conceptually at least, I have yet to try it out). It seems like a precursor to dynamic turning, with the exception that the rider isn't making him/herself lighter since they're not making any up/down movements (at least not deliberately). So I can see how it's not the same as dynamic turning, but why is it bad?

Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
No mention of pushing off the bumps, just anticipating with upper body and pivoting on the nose. He had me actually trying to press the nose and swing the tail in the air. Again to exaggerate and get me to weight my front foot.

As for wipering, is there a difference between wipering and pivoting on your front foot?

You sure he's not trying to get you to push against the side of the bump? Basically the arm (Frisbee) motion should be level and independent from lower body. The motion ends at where you want go on the new edge (hence leading with upper body and moving with lower.) They want you to make that movement right before you initiate the turn on your feet.

In the bumps they also want you to use the rear foot to push against side of the bump to gain more traction and area to turn.

At least that's the way I've been taught under CASI instructors.
 

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Well that makes senses if it's to correct riding in the back seat. That part of the lesson had me do front weight biase, then center and finally rear biases only for all parts of the turn just to see how it feels.

As for the wipering. Someone else more experienced will have to chime in. As far as how I've been taught, it's ok to have some washout on turns depending on conditions as long as it still follows the turn movement. No forcing a turn and never ok to rudder unless on pow. The only exception was learning how to slash on a natural sidewall.
 

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Old dog silly question. If you are still trying to develop solid riding skill at this point. Why are you in the mogul field??? Not trying to start something just wondering why your complicating your learning with some very advanced riding. I understand pushing yourself and riding new terrain, but this may be at the far extreme of that choice.

Good for you for trying but still wondering why at this point
 

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Discussion Starter #13
It's not like I can barely link turns...

I'm making dynamic turns on blues and popping off rollers and wind lips. What else should I be doing?

I have zero interest in park (not that we have one), so that leaves steeps and trees. I've done a few tree runs and it isn't pretty. So I figure moguls is the best way to practice control that could apply to trees or whatever.

When I say I'm "in the back seat" I mean on steeps in moguls and trees. I'm fine (if not steezy) on the groomers. I can navigate steep blue moguls, it's just ugly as hell.

Old dog silly question. If you are still trying to develop solid riding skill at this point. Why are you in the mogul field??? Not trying to start something just wondering why your complicating your learning with some very advanced riding. I understand pushing yourself and riding new terrain, but this may be at the far extreme of that choice.

Good for you for trying but still wondering why at this point
 

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May not be proper technique, but what's working very well for me when tree riding is to keep my weight very forward so that the tail is really loose. I then "swish" the tail back and forth to brake through a rutted tree path.
 

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The whole grabbing thing is new to me and must be a CASI thing.
maybe its oldschool, i remember an instructor having us do them when i was in lessons in the late 90's "rail grab carves" i think i got a pin . helps you get really low and compact while in the turn and hold a long carve.

let the board accelerate down the fall line
crouch down as you roll up on an edge
grab the rail between the bindings (indy front side, melon back side)
put your opposing hand on the snow to keep your balance
stand up as you come out of the turn

linking these toe and heel down a run will make anyone feel euro
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Add throwing you arm ahead of your turn and that's what he was trying to get me to do... I was really struggling though. I lack the confidence to really lean downhill in a mogul field. Nothing some practice and a couple beers won't fix... :D

May not be proper technique, but what's working very well for me when tree riding is to keep my weight very forward so that the tail is really loose. I then "swish" the tail back and forth to brake through a rutted tree path.
 

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Why is this improper?
Don't know if it is or it isn't, actually. I just know it works for me. I'm not a certified instructor by any means, so I'm always a little nervous about handing out advice.
 

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Don't know if it is or it isn't, actually. I just know it works for me. I'm not a certified instructor by any means, so I'm always a little nervous about handing out advice.
Oh, ok. I'm really curious about this. I'm just getting started and learning at the moment, so I'd like to hear a good reason for why it's bad.


A little bump for my previous question:

Generally, both organizations stress not "wipering" or "ruddering" the tail of the board as this is bad form and can cause some real difficulties in riding. Either initiate with the front foot through torsional twist as in skidding, or use tilt with both feet simultaneously as in carving. Avoid getting into the habit of "wipering".
Can anyone explain a little bit why wipering/ruddering is bad? I saw this alternate explanation for getting started on linking turns and it seemed like a helpful idea (conceptually at least, I have yet to try it out). It seems like a precursor to dynamic turning, with the exception that the rider isn't making him/herself lighter since they're not making any up/down movements (at least not deliberately). So I can see how it's not the same as dynamic turning, but why is it bad?

Thanks!
 

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I know Snowboard Addiction (pretty sure Nev is CASI 2 or 3 certified, I have the vid) and Snow professor (AASI 2 or 3 certified) also recommends "wipering" for going down steep terrain. But that might might be for intermediate to get used to leaning down a steep run and having their weight forward at the start of the turn.
 
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