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Howdy all,

The snow has started falling up on Hood this week. And that made me think... Where should I get my pass at this year??

Meadows or Timberline/Ski Bowl?

I have had the Fusion Pass at Timberline/Ski Bowl the last two seasons and generally enjoy it. I only went to Ski Bowl a couple of times when I didn't feel like going all the up to TLine. Or when the parking was full and had to park down the hill to catch a shuttle. So I don't see a huge value in having the Ski Bowl addition. I like that Timberline's season goes until Memorial Day and has some great Spring riding. My partner and I also go to Timberline and stay the weekend in the lodge once a year as a little getaway. But, some of TLine's downfalls, to me, is that it's a relatively small area on most days. There are only 6 lifts, unless you count the bunny lift so 7, and for most of the season only 4 of those are open. With a good chance that only 3 will be turning on any given day, unless the conditions are absolutely perfect. Lines never seem to be miserably long. Don't get me wrong there are some days that are super long but we seem to get through the lines fast enough and I'm a pretty patient person so I never really get bothered by queuing. So with the small amount of available lifts that means that there is not a whole lot of area to go exploring in.

The other established area to ride in is Mt. Hood Meadows. I've only been there a couple of times and I took beginner lessons there so never made it off the Ballroom Carpet. Overall I feel like it has more options especially as I'm getting more comfortable riding switch, taking jumps, and general riding. The downside is that it's further away. On a day with no traffic the time difference is negligible, about 10 minutes, but Timberline gets you out to the main road a lot faster and the the travel time to Tline is basically the same as home from TLine. Meadows can add up to an hour commute to get home, maybe even longer. So 1.5 hr can easily turn into 2.5+ hours for the commute home only. I wish that I would've gotten up to Meadows last season to try it out so I know for sure which of the two areas I prefer.

Everyone I know in Portland says that Timberline is great for the first couple of seasons until you feel comfortable and then go to Meadows because there is just...more. That includes more lines, more waiting, more people, more terrain, more lifts, etc.

Has anyone ridden both on this forum and can vouch for one or the other? I have friends that go to both places so I'll have a crew either way. Also my GF is going to try skiing, I know I know, this year. Snowboarding did not stick and after she landed on her tailbone she is hesitant to get back on a snowboard but wants participate in snow sports with me. I know Timberline better so I would feel better taking her around that area but also she's going to take a couple of lessons at the beginning of the season so I'll have time to explore Meadows a little bit before we are out venturing together.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk :wink:
 

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Howdy all,

The snow has started falling up on Hood this week. And that made me think... Where should I get my pass at this year??

Meadows or Timberline/Ski Bowl?

I have had the Fusion Pass at Timberline/Ski Bowl the last two seasons and generally enjoy it. I only went to Ski Bowl a couple of times when I didn't feel like going all the up to TLine. Or when the parking was full and had to park down the hill to catch a shuttle. So I don't see a huge value in having the Ski Bowl addition. I like that Timberline's season goes until Memorial Day and has some great Spring riding. My partner and I also go to Timberline and stay the weekend in the lodge once a year as a little getaway. But, some of TLine's downfalls, to me, is that it's a relatively small area on most days. There are only 6 lifts, unless you count the bunny lift so 7, and for most of the season only 4 of those are open. With a good chance that only 3 will be turning on any given day, unless the conditions are absolutely perfect. Lines never seem to be miserably long. Don't get me wrong there are some days that are super long but we seem to get through the lines fast enough and I'm a pretty patient person so I never really get bothered by queuing. So with the small amount of available lifts that means that there is not a whole lot of area to go exploring in.

The other established area to ride in is Mt. Hood Meadows. I've only been there a couple of times and I took beginner lessons there so never made it off the Ballroom Carpet. Overall I feel like it has more options especially as I'm getting more comfortable riding switch, taking jumps, and general riding. The downside is that it's further away. On a day with no traffic the time difference is negligible, about 10 minutes, but Timberline gets you out to the main road a lot faster and the the travel time to Tline is basically the same as home from TLine. Meadows can add up to an hour commute to get home, maybe even longer. So 1.5 hr can easily turn into 2.5+ hours for the commute home only. I wish that I would've gotten up to Meadows last season to try it out so I know for sure which of the two areas I prefer.

Everyone I know in Portland says that Timberline is great for the first couple of seasons until you feel comfortable and then go to Meadows because there is just...more. That includes more lines, more waiting, more people, more terrain, more lifts, etc.

Has anyone ridden both on this forum and can vouch for one or the other? I have friends that go to both places so I'll have a crew either way. Also my GF is going to try skiing, I know I know, this year. Snowboarding did not stick and after she landed on her tailbone she is hesitant to get back on a snowboard but wants participate in snow sports with me. I know Timberline better so I would feel better taking her around that area but also she's going to take a couple of lessons at the beginning of the season so I'll have time to explore Meadows a little bit before we are out venturing together.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk :wink:
I've had season passes to all three for pretty much every year along with a few other friends

Never riding Ski Bowl is your biggest mistake. You buy a Fusion pass you're buying Ski Bowl terrain with Timberline as a safety net to ride on days Ski Bowl isn't worth riding/isn't open. Why were you not riding Ski Bowl because that will explain a lot of why you should or should not switch to Meadows.

Meadows is bigger than either of the fusion pass resorts on their own true. And as a result its crowds make Timberline look empty even when timberline is packed. Lots are almost always closed by 8:45 before lifts are even open on weekends. Lots closed at Timberline, fine you just pull over and ride Ski Bowl without missing a step or take a short shuttle. Lots closed at Meadows, well it's not nearly that easy.

Meadows doesn't have better terrain than Ski Bowl, just bigger and colder. Keep in mind Meadows has the same upper lift problems as Timberline too. Cloudy, stormy, not perfect weather, Cascade will be closed and maybe Vista as well.

I ride Meadows and Ski Bowl almost exclusively but that's because there's nothing on Timberline outside of park that provides even a tiny challenge for me. If you're not at that level take that in to account. Meadows is for the die hard rider. It has the worst base lodges of all of them. It has the worst crowds, it's prime for the be at the mountain an hour before lifts start, ride for the first 3 hours until the resort gets tracked out then head home. Hence why it draws all the Hood River community.
 

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I've had season passes to all three for pretty much every year along with a few other friends

Never riding Ski Bowl is your biggest mistake. You buy a Fusion pass you're buying Ski Bowl terrain with Timberline as a safety net to ride on days Ski Bowl isn't worth riding/isn't open. Why were you not riding Ski Bowl because that will explain a lot of why you should or should not switch to Meadows.

Meadows is bigger than either of the fusion pass resorts on their own true. And as a result its crowds make Timberline look empty even when timberline is packed. Lots are almost always closed by 8:45 before lifts are even open on weekends. Lots closed at Timberline, fine you just pull over and ride Ski Bowl without missing a step or take a short shuttle. Lots closed at Meadows, well it's not nearly that easy.

Meadows doesn't have better terrain than Ski Bowl, just bigger and colder. Keep in mind Meadows has the same upper lift problems as Timberline too. Cloudy, stormy, not perfect weather, Cascade will be closed and maybe Vista as well.

I ride Meadows and Ski Bowl almost exclusively but that's because there's nothing on Timberline outside of park that provides even a tiny challenge for me. If you're not at that level take that in to account. Meadows is for the die hard rider. It has the worst base lodges of all of them. It has the worst crowds, it's prime for the be at the mountain an hour before lifts start, ride for the first 3 hours until the resort gets tracked out then head home. Hence why it draws all the Hood River community.
I started riding in Feb of 2018 and went to Ski Bowl on my 3rd day of riding ever. I went to Meadows the first two trips for lessons and then went to Ski Bowl to try something different. I think that was a huge mistake in building confidence haha. The old lifts and the steepness of it did not do much for instilling that I was a competent rider. I went a couple times this past season now that I feel more comfortable and had a blast specifically on powder days. Ski Bowl is amazing with fresh pow, as I'm sure you know. And now that I'm getting better, I'm able to appreciate the terrain more. But I still only foresee Ski Bowl being an option for me on days with fresh snow. I hate riding ice, haven't quite mastered it yet, and I feel like SB only offers ice or pow lol. I'm good with steep and fast in pow. Not so much on ice.

I've heard about the crowd differences between Meadows and Timberline and that's one category that I'm giving the edge to for the Fusion. How long are the lines actually at meadows? in peak time say 11am on a Saturday, how long is the wait to get in a chair?
 

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I started riding in Feb of 2018 and went to Ski Bowl on my 3rd day of riding ever. I went to Meadows the first two trips for lessons and then went to Ski Bowl to try something different. I think that was a huge mistake in building confidence haha. The old lifts and the steepness of it did not do much for instilling that I was a competent rider. I went a couple times this past season now that I feel more comfortable and had a blast specifically on powder days. Ski Bowl is amazing with fresh pow, as I'm sure you know. And now that I'm getting better, I'm able to appreciate the terrain more. But I still only foresee Ski Bowl being an option for me on days with fresh snow. I hate riding ice, haven't quite mastered it yet, and I feel like SB only offers ice or pow lol. I'm good with steep and fast in pow. Not so much on ice.

I've heard about the crowd differences between Meadows and Timberline and that's one category that I'm giving the edge to for the Fusion. How long are the lines actually at meadows? in peak time say 11am on a Saturday, how long is the wait to get in a chair?
If you started last year there's almost zero chance you've outgrown the Fusion pass. The steepest terrain at Timberline is about a third of what you'll get in the extra terrain you get at Meadows.

Meadows is bigger but that doesn't matter if you cant ride the extra and expanded terrain. If lifts and variable snow hold you back you won't be riding Heather's or PR or anything like that so all that terrain provides no added benefit to you.

Skibowl is good on pow days or warm days. The only time Skibowl will be icy is if it is super cold and hasn't snowed. Go to skibowl if it's 33 degrees and sunny you'll have soft carvable snow top to bottom.

Meadows again if you want to ride at 11 on a weekend you need to have been at the mountain by 8:30 at the latest and then by peak lifts you'll be waiting for 15-20 minutes or so on average at the main lifts you'd be riding.

Really it comes down to this: where do people you know you want to ride with go? Is lodge, crowds, bar, etc at all important to you? If those are yes then absolutely stick with Fusion. Are you riding 100% of Timberline without trouble and cant find anything to challange you? Do you not mind people and don't care about apres? Are you a person who just values new over anything else? Then go to meadows.

Based on skill alone though I don't think there's any way you need Meadows if that's your concern though.
 

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I started riding in Feb of 2018 and went to Ski Bowl on my 3rd day of riding ever. I went to Meadows the first two trips for lessons and then went to Ski Bowl to try something different. I think that was a huge mistake in building confidence haha. The old lifts and the steepness of it did not do much for instilling that I was a competent rider. I went a couple times this past season now that I feel more comfortable and had a blast specifically on powder days. Ski Bowl is amazing with fresh pow, as I'm sure you know. And now that I'm getting better, I'm able to appreciate the terrain more. But I still only foresee Ski Bowl being an option for me on days with fresh snow. I hate riding ice, haven't quite mastered it yet, and I feel like SB only offers ice or pow lol. I'm good with steep and fast in pow. Not so much on ice.

I've heard about the crowd differences between Meadows and Timberline and that's one category that I'm giving the edge to for the Fusion. How long are the lines actually at meadows? in peak time say 11am on a Saturday, how long is the wait to get in a chair?
Have you ridden Bone Zone at Timberline? Have you taken the palmer snowcat? Have your ridden Outback at Ski Bowl or any of the terrain under the Upper Bowl lift?

Have you taken the "backcountry" trail that lets you ride from Timberline all the way in to Government camp? (Its not really backcountry and its not dangerous or difficult so dont let it scare you). Do that from the Top of Palmer and you won't need another run all day.

Timberline on it's own is small but there's lots especially with Ski Bowl to ride for people just starting. Once you get to the point you are bored at Tline and saying only SkiBowl is worth riding on the fusion pass and only when it has snow, when you get to that point go to Meadows.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Have you ridden Bone Zone at Timberline? Yes Have you taken the palmer snowcat? Yes, I've even hiked up past Palmer in the Spring when not much below Mile is open Have your ridden Outback at Ski Bowl or any of the terrain under the Upper Bowl lift? Not Outback specifically but I have ridden Canonball, Canyon, and a couple other that are off the upper bowl lift. I haven't gone into the sidecountry area though because I was either A) by myself or B)My buddy didn't want to venture out there. And I'm not going sidecountry alone

Have you taken the "backcountry" trail that lets you ride from Timberline all the way in to Government camp? Yup! That is nice then grabbed a beer at Charlie's after :wink: (Its not really backcountry and its not dangerous or difficult so dont let it scare you). Do that from the Top of Palmer and you won't need another run all day.

Timberline on it's own is small but there's lots especially with Ski Bowl to ride for people just starting. Once you get to the point you are bored at Tline and saying only SkiBowl is worth riding on the fusion pass and only when it has snow, when you get to that point go to Meadows.
^^

I got up the mountain 36 times last season (2018-2019) and 8 times my first season Feb 2018- May 2018. I will go 30+ times again this upcoming season. I know that's not a lot for some people but it's also not something to scoff at either.

I have taken every run on Timberline, except the black diamond part of Mustang Sally right where it meets Flood. That just looks like not fun, it's nothing but moguls and super narrow which doesn't seem like a good idea for any snowboarder really haha.

I'm sure that I can appreciate Ski Bowl more now than on my 3rd day of riding. But the first few times, I'll be honest, it was intimidating. Especially because the main green in the middle is steeper than any of the blues on tline. I really enjoy hitting side hits and small jumps as well. I can comfortably get a Mute, Indy, Melon, Nose, and Tail grabs. Are they steezed out? Not yet but that's a work in progress!

I would be perfectly happy again with the fusion. Hell, I think I would be happy if I could only go to Cooper Spur. Just being on the mountain is a nice escape from the hustle and bustle of daily life. I think this is just a case of the is grass greener? The blues at tline are fairly mellow and few blacks to go on. But really only blacks to ride at Ski Bowl. Which can sometimes limit members of the group. I was hoping that the blues at Meadows are little more challenging, so the mindset is "It's still doable" but it still to challenging enough to keep leveling up. On the map it looks like there are much more blues to choose from so that's why I was looking into Meadows.

It's nice to know that they have the same issues to get to the top as tline does. 15-20 minute is about the same wait time that I experience at tline on the weekends too so that's not that big of a deal to me. From the stories I figured that it would be closer to 75-90 minutes. That would bother me >:). I get to the mountain early so not too worried about not getting a parking spot. I would typically roll into tline around 7:45-8a for their 9a start time. I can't seem to make myself get out of bed to go to work but I have no problem popping up wide awake at 5a if it means I get to snowboard!

I really appreciate the insight! I hate to say that I'm too good for Timberline. Like you said, I'm only going into my 3rd season, so there are things that I can still work on. Maybe I ride exclusively switch a couple days when I'm feeling rambunctious?

Do you have any advice on which of the two main places would be best for learning from scratch? I need to take that into consideration for my S/O. Like I said we both took Snowboard lesson at meadows and liked the Ballroom Carpet since it took arguably the hardest part of the equation, unloading, out of the picture. But she's going to the dark side... But does meadows have some decent greens that are wide enough to actually learn on?
 

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^^

I got up the mountain 36 times last season (2018-2019) and 8 times my first season Feb 2018- May 2018. I will go 30+ times again this upcoming season. I know that's not a lot for some people but it's also not something to scoff at either.

I have taken every run on Timberline, except the black diamond part of Mustang Sally right where it meets Flood. That just looks like not fun, it's nothing but moguls and super narrow which doesn't seem like a good idea for any snowboarder really haha.

I'm sure that I can appreciate Ski Bowl more now than on my 3rd day of riding. But the first few times, I'll be honest, it was intimidating. Especially because the main green in the middle is steeper than any of the blues on tline. I really enjoy hitting side hits and small jumps as well. I can comfortably get a Mute, Indy, Melon, Nose, and Tail grabs. Are they steezed out? Not yet but that's a work in progress!

I would be perfectly happy again with the fusion. Hell, I think I would be happy if I could only go to Cooper Spur. Just being on the mountain is a nice escape from the hustle and bustle of daily life. I think this is just a case of the is grass greener? The blues at tline are fairly mellow and few blacks to go on. But really only blacks to ride at Ski Bowl. Which can sometimes limit members of the group. I was hoping that the blues at Meadows are little more challenging, so the mindset is "It's still doable" but it still to challenging enough to keep leveling up. On the map it looks like there are much more blues to choose from so that's why I was looking into Meadows.

It's nice to know that they have the same issues to get to the top as tline does. 15-20 minute is about the same wait time that I experience at tline on the weekends too so that's not that big of a deal to me. From the stories I figured that it would be closer to 75-90 minutes. That would bother me >:). I get to the mountain early so not too worried about not getting a parking spot. I would typically roll into tline around 7:45-8a for their 9a start time. I can't seem to make myself get out of bed to go to work but I have no problem popping up wide awake at 5a if it means I get to snowboard!

I really appreciate the insight! I hate to say that I'm too good for Timberline. Like you said, I'm only going into my 3rd season, so there are things that I can still work on. Maybe I ride exclusively switch a couple days when I'm feeling rambunctious?

Do you have any advice on which of the two main places would be best for learning from scratch? I need to take that into consideration for my S/O. Like I said we both took Snowboard lesson at meadows and liked the Ballroom Carpet since it took arguably the hardest part of the equation, unloading, out of the picture. But she's going to the dark side... But does meadows have some decent greens that are wide enough to actually learn on?
That's actually a solid amount of time for a first season and a half. Far above average.

Meadows greens are Tline Blues and Meadows blues are as hard and often harder than any run at Tline save Trees and Mustang as mentioned.

If you're gung ho get up early and don't mind waiting ya there's a number of very long wide open greens at Meadows and it may be for you. Definitely more than T-Line. If Mustang was too much for you most all of blacks on meadows will be too much. They're all that steep and far steeper often with rocks and always with moguls and bumps. trees are also a huge draw to Meadows over TLine.

That being said on days Vista is open there is a pretty easy green that goes from near top to bottom of the mountain. With what it sounds like you and your SO are capable of riding together you'll likely stick mainly to

Hood Express
Stadium Express
Vista
Daisy.

Other lifts
Heather Canyon will be a no go at this oint and should be a no go without a skilled partner who knows the area, not joking when I say Ive almost died there and someone does like every year.
Blue is just an alternate to Hood Express so it's pointless
HRM lift is a possibility but it gets kind of steep and very bumpy towards the bottom, and outside of peak season low snow can leave a lot exposed.
Cascade Is a maybe for you if you choose the right path down.

Shooting Star will be the middle of the road lift that would be your goal to get to lapping together. It can be very difficult or a hard Tline Blue depending on where you go.
 

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How do the blacks between meadows and ski bowl compare? Seems like Meadows blacks comparable to ski bowls doubles? As long as the runs are wide I don't mind moguls and bumps. Just when it's narrow it's tough for me to get my board around. The smallest board I ride is a XL Warpig but everything else is 164+. I'm 6'6" ~ 240lbs (down from 260 lb!) so I ride bigger boards. I also understand that this is a skill that I haven't put much work into and as I get better I'll be able to navigate narrow and moguly better.

SO will not be going on any blacks this year. Maybe not ever, she's not much of a daredevil. :grin:

My SO stated that she is probably not going to buy a pass this year unless she really likes skiing but I want her to have a good experience so that she's inclined to keep going with me year after year. If there are wide greens then I think that she should be good to go. She's pretty athletic and actually progressed faster than me on a snowboard but just hit a wall after the 4th or 5th day and wasn't able to get any better past linking skidded turns. So I'm hoping she is able to pick this up fairly quickly. But she's not trying to break speed records or getting any air. Her goal is to get down the mountain alive and safely. So skis will probably be better for her anyway... what a square. :wink:

Also I 100000000000% agree that Heather or the other SC stuff is not in the cards at the moment and may not be this season but I'm totally OK with living until the next season to reassess my skills.
 

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How do the blacks between meadows and ski bowl compare? Seems like Meadows blacks comparable to ski bowls doubles? As long as the runs are wide I don't mind moguls and bumps. Just when it's narrow it's tough for me to get my board around. The smallest board I ride is a XL Warpig but everything else is 164+. I'm 6'6" ~ 240lbs (down from 260 lb!) so I ride bigger boards. I also understand that this is a skill that I haven't put much work into and as I get better I'll be able to navigate narrow and moguly better.

SO will not be going on any blacks this year. Maybe not ever, she's not much of a daredevil. :grin:

My SO stated that she is probably not going to buy a pass this year unless she really likes skiing but I want her to have a good experience so that she's inclined to keep going with me year after year. If there are wide greens then I think that she should be good to go. She's pretty athletic and actually progressed faster than me on a snowboard but just hit a wall after the 4th or 5th day and wasn't able to get any better past linking skidded turns. So I'm hoping she is able to pick this up fairly quickly. But she's not trying to break speed records or getting any air. Her goal is to get down the mountain alive and safely. So skis will probably be better for her anyway... what a square. :wink:

Also I 100000000000% agree that Heather or the other SC stuff is not in the cards at the moment and may not be this season but I'm totally OK with living until the next season to reassess my skills.
Black comparison is hard, it depends what blacks you're talking about. Ski bowl has some of the hardest in bounds terrain on the mountain. Under upper bowl with all the cliff lines directly under the chair is more aggresive than probably anything at Meadows. Some of the Outback is pretty comparable. The rest is probably a lower pitch. The Number bowls at Meadows (One Bowl, Two Bowl etc) are VERY wide open but 100% mogul field, not pick your line through moguls but rather pure you need to learn to ride moguls mogul field. If you hit them early they're fun but after that even I don't like them much as it's just a lot of work to ride on a board compared to skis. Cascade is pretty open as well and usually not TOO mogul filled IF it's open. The rest of the blacks are all in Heather or are tree runs/pretty narrow.

As for the SO get her to ski absolutely if it gets her on the mountain. Let her do whatever makes her most comfortable, getting her to go will make your life a million times better. But if she tries boarding again get her a lesson. One lesson will literally jump her up a bunch, especially if shes aleady got basics. I taught for years and in an hour you can teach people more than they'd learn on their own in a year. Multiple lessons are best but they get expensive. you could probably do a group lesson without a huge crowd if she doesn't have to take the vry beginner lesson as thats what draws the most people. Sometimes you can get lucky and pay for a group lesson and end up getting it completely solo which is awesome.

Top of Vista down offers HUGE wide open green areas and theres a couple long mellow runs from the top of the main lift. The only thing is with crowds runs are more crowded so while wider you have to manuever around people. It's not terrible compared to other reorts but honestly greens feel far more cramped at Ski Bowl in my opinion due to the number of new riders it attracts.
 

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Black comparison is hard, it depends what blacks you're talking about. Ski bowl has some of the hardest in bounds terrain on the mountain. Under upper bowl with all the cliff lines directly under the chair is more aggresive than probably anything at Meadows. Some of the Outback is pretty comparable. The rest is probably a lower pitch. The Number bowls at Meadows (One Bowl, Two Bowl etc) are VERY wide open but 100% mogul field, not pick your line through moguls but rather pure you need to learn to ride moguls mogul field. If you hit them early they're fun but after that even I don't like them much as it's just a lot of work to ride on a board compared to skis. Cascade is pretty open as well and usually not TOO mogul filled IF it's open. The rest of the blacks are all in Heather or are tree runs/pretty narrow.

As for the SO get her to ski absolutely if it gets her on the mountain. Let her do whatever makes her most comfortable, getting her to go will make your life a million times better. But if she tries boarding again get her a lesson. One lesson will literally jump her up a bunch, especially if shes aleady got basics. I taught for years and in an hour you can teach people more than they'd learn on their own in a year. Multiple lessons are best but they get expensive. you could probably do a group lesson without a huge crowd if she doesn't have to take the vry beginner lesson as thats what draws the most people. Sometimes you can get lucky and pay for a group lesson and end up getting it completely solo which is awesome.

Top of Vista down offers HUGE wide open green areas and theres a couple long mellow runs from the top of the main lift. The only thing is with crowds runs are more crowded so while wider you have to manuever around people. It's not terrible compared to other reorts but honestly greens feel far more cramped at Ski Bowl in my opinion due to the number of new riders it attracts.
FOR SURE on the lessons. We took three snowboarding lessons the first season. And I offered to get her private lessons but she was disinterested and didn't think it would do any good. It's hard to progress if you don't think you're gonna get better. So we are starting from scratch with skis. We will do the three pack of lessons at whichever resort I end up getting a pass to. And then maybe a 5 time deal for her. Unless she really likes it and wants to up to a full pass.

I appreciate the feedback on the differences. Definitely has left me with somethings to ponder. I think I'm leaning towards Meadows. Although I may not be bored with Timberline right now, I might be halfway through the upcoming season. It's nice knowing that the blues at Meadows are more difficult. It'll push me to keep getting better!
 
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