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I'd say you going up another half size will make the issue worse. Sounds like your feet are able to slide forward during hard heelside turns, jamming you toe into the shell. Half size down in the right boot with the right heel hold for yourself should solve that issue.

Not wides, but at 27.8cm and 10.4 wide I rode size 10 Ions, Imperials, and Rulers which match my Mondo. 27.8cm = 28 Mondo = 10US. His chart would have me in size 11s. My first pair of new boots were 10.5 Motos because they were on sale, only got 7 or 8 days on those before I knew they were far too big (and soft).

What I actually ride now, and have done for years, is a size 9 Ride Fuse. I can size down because it's the right boot for my foot. I've managed 9.5s in some K2s as well, and all I do is heat mold and use a good footbed that supports my arch well.

My point is I'd trust foot measurements to mondo sizing and make that the goal. If you gotta upsize from your mondo measurement, it's probably not the right boot for your foot.
I respect your opinion but don't you think if that were true both feet would be sliding and both feet would have the same problem? Both sliding, both having black toenails?
Only the longer foot has a problem, the shorter foot with a few mm clearance is perfect so my thought process is to replicate that on the other side.
Anyway I've had the die jammed in the shell for a week now, and I'm going to leave it there until the season starts so I will know if it works or fails fairly soon and post back to confirm.
Another point is with my 4e width, I don't have other boots to choose from without resorting to cutting the sides out of the liners like I used to do.
 

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Check the above link for more details. My issue is a very straight big toe stuffed in a rounded boot.
 

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I am wearing them around the house now and it feels good, I think I will add some small wedges under the heel which will help should my feet want to slide forward like you said.
 

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Nice post.
As a reference my longest foot measures 27.1cm and I wear size US10 burton photon wides which if you look at your conversion is exactly 27.1cm
On that foot only I get a black toenail every season, the other foot which is slightly shorter never has a problem, as such my next pair will be a half size bigger to avoid the problem.

So my conclusion is to follow this chart and size up half size for burton wides.
Hi Kijima,

Black toenails are almost always caused by too large a boot. The subtle but repetitive fore/aft movement inside the boot causes this. 27.1 cm is the smallest size in the range for Mondopoint 275 which is size 9.5 US in snowboard boots. The range for Mondopoint 275 is 27.1 to 27.5 cm. .1 cm (1 mm) smaller and you would be a size 9 (based on these measurements). Have you posted up your images of your foot measurements?

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Check the above link for more details. My issue is a very straight big toe stuffed in a rounded boot.
Check Burton SLX (2021 model chequered design) it has the widest toe box of all, it's a bit expensive but it's the only boot that best matches the shape of your feet. Burton's "Wide" models have the same shell with only the liner modification you show in your post. It is not a good solution since now you lost your most important support in the liner (ok ankle support is also important but heel lift won't give you black toe nails, lack of toe support will). It doesn't matter how good of an instep support you have, you will have toe bang if you have empty space in front of your toe.

You have this empty space due to Burton's poor execution of "wide" model liners. You only show pinky side in your post but it also has this thin neoprene on the toe side. Toe side neoprene extends too far forward and tip of your toe is not properly supported anymore. Pinky side is fine all the way forward, but toe side neoprene should only have been up to the tip of metatarsal bone, not more. For all riders that get black toe nails due to toe bang, I suggest you Google "ballet pointe technique" to give you an idea of what it takes to fully support your weight at the tip of your toes, it will give you insight on what kind of boots/modifications you need.

Don't size up as others have already suggested, it will only make things worse. If anything you can go a half size down (US 9.5) in a proper wide toebox shell. Only 2021 Burton SLX has that kind of toebox as far as I'm aware of.
 

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Not wides, but at 27.8cm and 10.4 wide I rode size 10 Ions, Imperials, and Rulers which match my Mondo. 27.8cm = 28 Mondo = 10US. His chart would have me in size 11s. My first pair of new boots were 10.5 Motos because they were on sale, only got 7 or 8 days on those before I knew they were far too big (and soft).

What I actually ride now, and have done for years, is a size 9 Ride Fuse. I can size down because it's the right boot for my foot. I've managed 9.5s in some K2s as well, and all I do is heat mold and use a good footbed that supports my arch well.

My point is I'd trust foot measurements to mondo sizing and make that the goal. If you gotta upsize from your mondo measurement, it's probably not the right boot for your foot.
I also tried the Fuse last season and I ordered it 3 times. I should be in a size 9.5 US (my longer foot measures 27,4cm barefoot) but I had to size down to a 9 and then to a size 8.5. This doesn't mean that the boot is than other brands in a size 9.5 though. The fit inside of the ride Fuse 8.5 is pretty much like a 9.5 i - you have to look at the outside length of the boots and how it fits inside, that's what counts not what's written on the tag! Rides sizing on the Fuse is just messed up. What's strange though is that this doesn't seem to be the case with other models of the brand. I tried the 92 in the store and even the 9 seemed to be too small for my feet. They didn't have a size 9.5 but I guess it would hae been a pretty good fit lengthwise - I have no idea what's wrong here. I also noticed that the left boot is slightly shorter than the right one - so yeah, I don't really trust Ride's sizing, considering I'm not the only one with this "problem" regarding the Fuse boot. The Ride Fuse 8,5 is pretty much the same length / fit inside as my Adidas Acerra size 9 and Burton Ion size 9.5.

I think @compatibilizer got a good point with the finger-method. I recently discovered this as well because I get some discomfort in my Adidas Acerra in the heel-section. The liner is paperthin in the heel and the toe, this is how they achieve such a small footprint. I really wish they (Burton does this as well) would stop do that and just leave the liner thickness the same in the heel for more cushioning -it's where the most friction occurs after all. I found out that i couldn't even fit my index finger between the shell and my foot (with very thin socks on) whereas I could easily fit one finger into the Ion and about one and a half into the Fuse (size 8.5).

Wouldn't this "finger-test" be a more reliable method to judge a boot's size. Every liner willl pack out eventually and can also be heatmolded so isn't the shell the determining factor of how big a foot a boot can accomodate?
 

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Hi,

Finger testing is unreliable. If you measure your foot correctly and purchase the mondopint size that is suggested (without any adjustment to that size) you will have firm pressure (toe and heel) into the compliant materials of the liner. This is neither a performance fit or a race fit. This is just a fit. This is the manufacturer telling you that in accordance with the standardized Mondopoint measurement that this boot is designed for your 5 mm range measurement.

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Hi,

Finger testing is unreliable. If you measure your foot correctly and purchase the mondopint size that is suggested (without any adjustment to that size) you will have firm pressure (toe and heel) into the compliant materials of the liner. This is neither a performance fit or a race fit. This is just a fit. This is the manufacturer telling you that in accordance with the standardized Mondopoint measurement that this boot is designed for your 5 mm range measurement.

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Thx, makes sense I guess.
Well IF the manufacturer did construct the boot precisely after the Mondo sizing - which he definately didn't do with my Ride Fuse - but maybe I got a Lemon, Idk but a lot of people seem to downsize on these boots.

On another note @Wiredsport do you have a suggestion how to make the heel more cushy? Should I try to put a donout of bootfitting-foam on the outside of the liner? Or just buy socks with a lot of cushioning in the heel area?
 

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Hi,
We suggest thin socks in every instance with the heat fit done with those socks on. Tell the person doing your heat fit if you have heel issues and they will help assure that the liner back there is left with ample material.

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Ok, thx.
Would it help to try a refit of a boot that has already been heatfitted (didn't ride it yet) or is the material already too compressed there?
 

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Hi,

Finger testing is unreliable. If you measure your foot correctly and purchase the mondopint size that is suggested (without any adjustment to that size) you will have firm pressure (toe and heel) into the compliant materials of the liner. This is neither a performance fit or a race fit. This is just a fit. This is the manufacturer telling you that in accordance with the standardized Mondopoint measurement that this boot is designed for your 5 mm range measurement.

STOKED!
Wired you seem to have some knowledge in boot manufacturing process, at least some of your posts gave me the impression that you have seen a few molds used in the manufacturing process of these boots before.

Here's my question, regardless of mold differences, hence sizing inconsistencies between brands (or even different models of same brand) can you confirm that for a given model of a given brand, each molds length will increase in 1cm increments between sizes?

Whether it be a physical or digital mold, whether it be a shell mold or a liner mold, their length should always increase in 1cm increments between sizes (for a given model). Please only confirm if you know this as a fact, not a deduction from past experience. I know this would be too technical a detail to know for a fact (even for someone working in the manufacturing of these boots) but I'm just trying my chances.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,313 (Edited)
Nice post.
As a reference my longest foot measures 27.1cm and I wear size US10 burton photon wides which if you look at your conversion is exactly 27.1cm
On that foot only I get a black toenail every season, the other foot which is slightly shorter never has a problem, as such my next pair will be a half size bigger to avoid the problem.

So my conclusion is to follow this chart and size up half size for burton wides.
This happened to me. I ended up buying two different sized boots when they went on sale. Me left foot is a half cm bigger than my right. I end up slamming my big toe into the front of the boot since I ride really aggressively (big moguls, hard carving, etc). I still slam a little bit into the bigger size, but I’m not losing my big toenail anymore like I would ever season from the abuse it would take. Now it just ends up being a bit less abused, but still painful. Oh well. The joys of having two different sized feet (though, it’s common).

My feet are measured accurately, as per this thread. Both my feet press firmly into the front part of the boot (my left would quite a bit more before I went a half size up). Another poster mentioned stance, and I ride -9, 9 on a twin board. I ride switch almost as much as I ride regular, so I would disagree with it being a stance issue.

I buy the smallest boots my feet can fit into because I know they will open up. I use Ruler Wide boots in an 8.5 and a 9. I would like to try a slightly less wide boot to see if that changes anything for me. My boots feel great, but with the way I ride my feet will take a punishment. I’ve settled on that.
 

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Hi,

Finger testing is unreliable. If you measure your foot correctly and purchase the mondopint size that is suggested (without any adjustment to that size) you will have firm pressure (toe and heel) into the compliant materials of the liner. This is neither a performance fit or a race fit. This is just a fit. This is the manufacturer telling you that in accordance with the standardized Mondopoint measurement that this boot is designed for your 5 mm range measurement.

STOKED!
You said

"...purchase the mondopint size that is suggested (without any adjustment to that size) you will have firm pressure (toe and heel) into the compliant materials of the liner..."

This is correct only because "the dumb conversion chart" (which somehow became widely accepted in the industry) suggests you to get into a slightly smaller size than your actual size for 90% of the people. But you also know very well that, things don't turn out the same way for people at the smaller end of the spectrum right? I read your posts on other threads where you confirm that to be your experience also.

Here's what's going on, the dumb conversion chart puts you into your exact size at US size 5, then it gradually puts you into a smaller and smaller boot as you progress upwards. When you get to US size 11 it gives you a full size smaller boot, which is widely accepted as a performance fit, and you will have firm pressure all around into the compliant materials, just as you always describe how it should "fit" and I agree with you on this. But when you get to US size 15 it gives you a boot one and a half size too small, this is right around where things start getting pretty hard to work with.

90% of men will have a size between US 7 and US 11 which is where the dumb chart works best and suggests you a slightly smaller than your actual size. But you also had people with smaller feet downsize even further than what their Mondopoint suggested, right? You also had people with really large feet and they almost always needed a shell punch. I know these agree with your past experiences because I've read most of your posts and gave a long hard thought about it.

Seriously, check my chart again and study it carefully, you may just realize that I have a point here...

1605882029020.png
 

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... and "the dumb conversion chart" for the reference of other interested parties. I took it from Burton's site but it's the same chart found on all brands' websites.


155503
 

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Hi Compat,

What we actually suggest is that you should not rely on any conversion chart or conversion for length. We suggest that you go only by your mondopoint measurements which are your actual barefoot measurements. You can then purchase based on that Mondopoint size. There is a Mondopoint standard for width as well but no manufacturers post that info so we have to use a chart for that. The best one is the one I have posted above.

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You advise not to rely on any conversion chart but you actually do rely on a conversion chart, and that chart is the dumb conversion chart. What you suggest, measuring the feet in cm and sizing your boot according to Mondopoint can only be truly valid if manufacturers designed their boots strictly according to Mondopoint molds. If that's not the case, it effectively means you're relying on their conversion chart.

My claim is that boot manufacturers design their products based on US size molds (because most of them are based in USA or Canada) then give you the dumb chart only as a reference (which luckily turns out to suggest a "proper" fit for 90% of population).

My claim is consistent with my (and with your) past experiences.
 

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You advise not to rely on any conversion chart but you actually do rely on a conversion chart, and that chart is the dumb conversion chart. What you suggest, measuring the feet in cm and sizing your boot according to Mondopoint can only be truly valid if manufacturers designed their boots strictly according to Mondopoint molds. If that's not the case, it effectively means you're relying on their conversion chart.

My claim is that boot manufacturers design their products based on US size molds (because most of them are based in USA or Canada) then give you the dumb chart only as a reference (which luckily turns out to suggest a "proper" fit for 90% of population).

My claim is consistent with my (and with your) past experiences.
I can see your point but I seriously doubt that any manufacturer designs boots with the US-sizing system - precisely because of the faults of the US-sizing system that you already pointed out. I'm pretty sure the lasts are made using the metric system, so an accurate fit can be achieved. Although that's just guessing at my part of course.
 

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As we all know, manufacturing industry in USA is extremely resistant against metrification, despite many attempts over the years. They even had senate laws and acts in place to transition into metric system, but this huge resistance in the manufacturing industry proved the attempts futile and they had to be withdrawn. It's easily understandable since they have an immense number of machinery and tools in place, operating in imperial measurement units. It would be easy to convert a CNC machine to operate under metric system, but not the manual machines that rely on dials and screws for motion. And the tools (cutters, drills, taps, etc.) themselves all have to be scrapped, in most cases they cost more than the machine itself. It's not just about the cost too, they learned measurements based on fractions since they were kids, not in decimals like we did. If I asked you to imagine how thick a 3/16th of an inch would be, it would take you a good 20 seconds to actually calculate that, but they don't even think about it. Same goes for you, you can instantly imagine how thick 4.76 mm would be, but it will take them at least 20 seconds to figure that out.

These manufacturers used to have wooden molds built by master craftsmen in the 80's but they became digitized by 3D scanning during late 90's when design process moved towards a computer based approach. Of course there must have been modifications in the digital design over the years, but it is very unlikely that they scrapped the whole thing and start from scratch based on a metric system. I know this because I work in a similar industry and we still design based on our legacy models. As they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

By the way, I never said the US sizing system is faulty, I said it's based on fractions of an inch, this is not a shortcoming. The widely accepted conversion chart (aka "the dumb conversion chart") is what's faulty, but it just works, for most people, not all.
 

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It all boils down to a simple fact, skiing was born in Europe, so Mondopoint became the standard for ski boots. Snowboarding was born in US after skiing became popular, so they had to reference Mondopoint and they did. Good enough to make it work, not good enough to make it accurate.
 

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You advise not to rely on any conversion chart but you actually do rely on a conversion chart, and that chart is the dumb conversion chart. What you suggest, measuring the feet in cm and sizing your boot according to Mondopoint can only be truly valid if manufacturers designed their boots strictly according to Mondopoint molds. If that's not the case, it effectively means you're relying on their conversion chart.

My claim is that boot manufacturers design their products based on US size molds (because most of them are based in USA or Canada) then give you the dumb chart only as a reference (which luckily turns out to suggest a "proper" fit for 90% of population).

My claim is consistent with my (and with your) past experiences.
Hi Compatibilizer,

I appreciate your comments but no, we are not relying on any conversion. Quite the opposite, we suggest that riders use only their barefoot measurements to find their mondopoint size. You will see this in every one of my hundreds of responses here. Furthermore, boots are designed by the Mondopoint standard, not by US shoe size. What differentiates Mondopoint from all other standards is that it is not a conversion. "ISO 9407 Mondopoint specifies a method of designation and marking of footwear size called Mondopoint, based on defined measurements of the foot that the footwear is intended to fit." I don't know if you will be able to view the full standard without purchase ISO 9407:2019 but anyone involved in boot production could show it to you. We have a site dedicated to boot sizing Snowboard Boot Size, Chart, Calculator, Sizing and the first answer in our FAQ is:

All snowboard boots are designed and built around the Mondopoint standard. Mondopoint is simply your foot measurement in millimeters. By definition Mondopoint sizing means that the millimeter size printed on the boot is the foot measurement that the boot was designed for. This is basically a message to you from the brand or manufacturer of the foot size that this boot is intended to fit. It is critical to note that this will be a very different fit than a "shoe size". It will be much snugger all around and will have firm pressure on all areas of the foot. This can be very surprising or feel "wrong" to a new rider.

From there we do make it easy for riders by giving them the associated US Snowboard boot size (always different from US shoe size) simply because every major manufacturer does list this size prominently on packaging. Brands typically will list 3 to 5 different conversions on their boot labels. As we have noted on numerous occasions, we wish they would not list any conversions and that they would include the Mondopoint width measurement on every product as well. Conversions lead to mistakes particularly because almost veryon buys their shoe size the first time around (always the wrong size). We never use that conversion or shoe size as a basis for sizing however.
 
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