Snowboarding Forum - Snowboard Enthusiast Forums banner

1321 - 1340 of 1356 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Well Wiredsport that's your claim not a fact, and I understand your stance on this subject, it should be frightening for you thinking about your reputation in this forum. I understand your resistance more than anyone, accepting hundreds of advices you've given were based on a faulty conversion? Well nobody is blaming you here, your advices were good enough for most 90% and nothing can ever change that you're a good dude doing good deeds for our community.

If you look at the ski boots that were truly designed based on mondopoint, you'll realize that their packaging boxes indicate the mondopoint size in the large print (with smaller print references to conversions). All snowboard boots come in boxes indicating US size in the large print, I have never seen one indicating the mondopoint size in large.

It is also an established fact that skates manufactured in US are based on US sizing and the ones manufactured in EU are based on EU sizing. Skaters are well aware of this by now and do their sizing decisions accordingly. I recommend you spend some time reading skate forums. I bet you'll find some material that can change your mind on whether snowboard boots manufactured in US are really designed upon mondopoint or not.

In the meantime, I found another good read, you really should check this one out first.

Shoe size - Wikipedia

Seems like International Standards Organization (ISO) is also supporting my case, proving "the dumb conversion chart" is inaccurate.

155565


Me? Rather than believing your claim that ALL snowboard boots are designed based on mondopoint, I prefer to trust ISO on this one... I will fit based on this;

1) Take mm measurements
2) Convert to US size using the ISO conversion chart
3) Assume the result to be a "comfort fit" and downsize from there if necessary

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and what you will do is up to you. I believe I already made my case very clear.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,671 Posts
Hi Compatibilizer, Again I thank you for your comments. For what it is worth, I have owned our snowboard company for 27 years. I have designed and produced our branded snowboard boots for the past 15 years on three continents and in 4 factories. I assure you that Mondopoint is the only standard used for design and development. Brands use data sets which are regularly updated to obtain current foot measurements from a wide a sample set from various parts of the world. These are almost always purchased data sets. They then develop their size breaks based on 5 millimeter increments which comprise the Mondopoint standard. US shoe size and other conversions for labeling happen way down the line when sales and marketing considerations are addressed.

Again, Many thanks for your contributions
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Hi Compatibilizer, Again I thank you for your comments. For what it is worth, I have owned our snowboard company for 27 years. I have designed and produced our branded snowboard boots for the past 15 years on three continents and in 4 factories. I assure you that Mondopoint is the only standard used for design and development. Brands use data sets which are regularly updated to obtain current foot measurements from a wide a sample set from various parts of the world. These are almost always purchased data sets. They then develop their size breaks based on 5 millimeter increments which comprise the Mondopoint standard. US shoe size and other conversions for labeling happen way down the line when sales and marketing considerations are addressed.

Again, Many thanks for your contributions
If you really have(or had) your brand and you really did design boots based on Mondopoint, that's a good step forward. But unfortunately we can not generalize what you did to the industry as a whole. You may have done it, but it doesn't mean anything if Burton doesn't, DC doesn't, Salomon doesn't, Ride doesn't, etc. etc.

I thought you owned a snowboard shop (reseller) not a snowboard brand. Could you show us a picture of one of "your brand" boots?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,671 Posts
Hi Compatibilizer,

I am happy to help. We produce and sell direct to customer the brands System, Siren, Camp Seven and Grayne. Many here are aware of that because have given away hundreds of (board, boot, binding) snowboard packages that we produce here on the forum over the past 15 years in our "Stokers" which are giveaways designed to help new riders get into the sport. Here are two of our current boots. To reiterate all brands, including all of those that you have mentioned design using the Mondopoint standard.

155513
155514
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,671 Posts
One additional piece of info, You mentioned 4 brands above. Kindly look at the countries of manufacturer. US sizing because of US manufacturing has never been a consideration. As mentioned earlier, we wish that only Mondo sizing would be listed on very boot. We are well aware of the random nature of what gets put on boots and boxes and it is part of what makes things difficult. This is why we spend so much time getting this right for people. We want happy snowboarders! To make matters even more difficult there are still many resellers and resources that suggest purchasing snowboard boots by US shoe size. We mention this all the time. It is a constant battle. It falls in the same category as "buy it to your chin" for snowboard sizing.

Best regards

155515
155516
155517
155518
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
all brands, including all of those that you have mentioned design using the Mondopoint standard.
Please tell me how you know this, how is this not an assumption...

US manufacturing has never been a consideration
I never said they were manufactured in US, I said they were designed in US.

Can you also show us the packaging boxes for all those boots please? Let me show you boxes for various ski boot manufacturers, realize how their largest print shows Mondopoint (neither EU-sizing nor US-sizing). You know that EU sizing is used in Europe on street shoes, not Mondopoint right? You said prints on the box are related to the products intended market, then why would Burton, Rome, DC, etc.. design their boots around Mondopoint if their intended market is the US? Also why ski boot manufacturers don't show EU-sizing in their largest print then?

Well, the largest print on the box shows what the boot was designed around makes more sense to me...

155519


155520


155521


155522


155523


155524


Again
all brands, including all of those that you have mentioned design using the Mondopoint standard.
Please tell us how you know this. It even contradicts with your own posts in this forum. You always say smaller sizes need downsizing even further than what "the dumb chart" indicates, larger sizes need to see a boot fitter. This shouldn't be the case if they were designed around Mondopoint like ski boots are..

Since you sell these brands, why don't you ask your rep to get in touch with their R&D department and confirm your assumptions?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Let's first agree on this, "the dumb chart" (which is somehow widely accepted in the snowboarding industry) is in fact flawed. Even the International Standards Organization (ISO) says it's incorrect, so let's take this as a fact. I think we can move forward with our reasoning from here.

Hypothesis 1) US based snowboard manufacturer. Intended market is mainly US. They design their boots upon Mondopoint sizing system. They publish a conversion chart to reference US sizes, but that chart is flawed. They print the flawed US-size conversion with the largest print on their box.

Hypothesis 2) US based snowboard manufacturer. Intended market is mainly US. They design their boots upon US sizing system. They publish a conversion chart to reference Mondopoint sizes, but that chart is flawed. They print the correct US-size with the largest print on their box.

Now which of these make more sense to you?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
By the way, you know I have nothing against you right? I admire you, you're a very good guy. My sole intention is, if there is a treason against our beloved feet, we must uncover it. We're one community after all...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,671 Posts
Let's first agree on this, "the dumb chart" (which is somehow widely accepted in the snowboarding industry) is in fact flawed. Even the International Standards Organization (ISO) says it's incorrect, so let's take this as a fact. I think we can move forward with our reasoning from here.

Hypothesis 1) US based snowboard manufacturer. Intended market is mainly US. They design their boots upon Mondopoint sizing system. They publish a conversion chart to reference US sizes, but that chart is flawed. They print the flawed US-size conversion with the largest print on their box.

Hypothesis 2) US based snowboard manufacturer. Intended market is mainly US. They design their boots upon US sizing system. They publish a conversion chart to reference Mondopoint sizes, but that chart is flawed. They print the correct US-size with the largest print on their box.

Now which of these make more sense to you?
Unfortunately, neither as only 16% of the world's snowboard market is in the USA. May I ask if you work in, have worked in, or have any first hand knowledge of the workings of the snowsports industry?

Many thanks.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,671 Posts
By the way, you know I have nothing against you right? I admire you, you're a very good guy. My sole intention is, if there is a treason against our beloved feet, we must uncover it. We're one community after all...
I didn't think that. Answering questions is what we do. I talk about snowboard gear with riders 365 days a year. Getting it right for them is our business. Answering your questions is helpful to anyone who reads the discussion. That is why we love popular forums. We understand that we are never answering a question for an individual, but for a much wider group.

STOKED!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Unfortunately, neither as only 16% of the world's snowboard market is in the USA.
Hey it was your claim that US based manufacturers print US size largest because their intended market was US. That's exactly what I was trying to prove wrong.

May I ask if you work in, have worked in, or have any first hand knowledge of the workings of the snowsports industry?
I'm in the top 0,05% of population in terms of intellect, if you're trying to measure my competency to talk on the subject. I also am very well aware of the dynamics in design and manufacturing today. Why should it matter if I work in snowsports industry or not? I'm blaming those who work in that industry but never realized the discrepancy. We're just crunching numbers here...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
I also own a company and a brand, like you do. I prefer not to tell what we manufacture because that's kind of a trade secret, but I can tell you this much, what we do is right at the heart of design and manufacturing, in every industry. I am probably younger than you, but not so young at 34 years old. I am married without kids and I've been snowboarding for the last 9 years, 30 days a year on average.

I don't know if any of this has anything to do with our discussion, but here they are.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Now that you've withdrawn your claim on US sizes print largest due to intended market, let's update our hypotheses.

Hypothesis 1) US based snowboard manufacturer. They design their boots upon Mondopoint sizing system. They publish a conversion chart to reference US sizes, but that chart is flawed. They print the flawed US-size conversion with the largest print on their box.

Hypothesis 2) US based snowboard manufacturer. They design their boots upon US sizing system. They publish a conversion chart to reference Mondopoint sizes, but that chart is flawed. They print the correct US-size with the largest print on their box.

Now which of these make more sense to you?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
I know this doesn't "prove" anything per-se, but neither are you giving us any proof on your assumptions.
Why don't you just ask a few of your reps to e-mail their R&D department, so we all can actually know what's what.
 

·
Destroying Worlds Since 2015
Joined
·
6,514 Posts
I'm in the top 0,05% of population in terms of intellect, if you're trying to measure my competency to talk on the subject. I also am very well aware of the dynamics in design and manufacturing today. Why should it matter if I work in snowsports industry or not? I'm blaming those who work in that industry but never realized the discrepancy. We're just crunching numbers here...
It should matter because of something called 'credibility', which you have to establish if you want to be taken seriously. Wired has that in spades, and you are faced with a huge uphill battle. I admit I haven't been reading every single post in this debate, but to the extent I have, so far all I've seen from you are assertions. Including the comment about your intellect. It's an easy assertion to make, and worth every penny paid for it. For instance, I'm in the top 0.01 percent of population for intellect, weigh 300 lbs of solid muscle, can lift a car with one hand, am over 200 years old but still model in my spare time, and invented Kung Fu. What, you don't believe me? Odd...

And BTW, even if you are anywhere near as intelligent as you claim, as a matter of simple logic it doesn't make you automatically authoritative in any subject you turn your attention to.

I'd suggest you rely a little less on repeated assertions, and a little more on credible specifics, at least if you want to actually convince anyone of anything. If you're just another troll, have at it until everyone gets tired of it and blackholes you.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,671 Posts
Hi Comp,

Please look back. I wrote, "From there we do make it easy for riders by giving them the associated US Snowboard boot size (always different from US shoe size) simply because every major manufacturer does list this size prominently on packaging." I would never say that they do this because the US is the intended market. We are part of the intended market but a relatively small part. We, like all snowboard companies subscribe to industry services which provide us with relevant data that is required to effectively operate in a very competitive space.

Regarding Mondopoint as the only sizing for design of snowboard boots, that is 100% common knowledge with everyone that has active involvement in snowboard boot production. What I have told you is a fact. We produce in factories alongside numerous brands, I go to the factories, I work with them, and I say this with direct knowledge and full confidence. I asked your experience only to confirm that you were operating on your thoughts alone.

Thanks again!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
It should matter because of something called 'credibility', which you have to establish if you want to be taken seriously. Wired has that in spades, and you are faced with a huge uphill battle. I admit I haven't been reading every single post in this debate, but to the extent I have, so far all I've seen from you are assertions. Including the comment about your intellect. It's an easy assertion to make, and worth every penny paid for it. For instance, I'm in the top 0.01 percent of population for intellect, weigh 300 lbs of solid muscle, can lift a car with one hand, am over 200 years old but still model in my spare time, and invented Kung Fu. What, you don't believe me? Odd...

And BTW, even if you are anywhere near as intelligent as you claim, as a matter of simple logic it doesn't make you automatically authoritative in any subject you turn your attention to.

I'd suggest you rely a little less on repeated assertions, and a little more on credible specifics, at least if you want to actually convince anyone of anything. If you're just another troll, have at it until everyone gets tired of it and blackholes you.
Only thing you're missing, I'm not trying to convince anyone to anything. I neither am claiming authority on any subject, I am just challenging the authority to convince me.

Intellect.. I can not answer every stance against this issue now, and I know a lot more will follow you, always have always will. That's why I don't prefer to be upfront about it, but Wired challenged my credibility so I put it there. And yes it actually does make me authoritative on a subject I turn enough of my attention to (at least that's been my experience until now) but let me remind again, I'm not claiming any here, I'm just challenging it.

You have your point, you shouldn't trust me because I say I'm smart, but smart people know to pick out others like themselves so they know who they should give credit to, and all the others hate the bunch. This will be my first and last comment on this subject, which is outside the scope of this discussion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Hi Comp,

Please look back. I wrote, "From there we do make it easy for riders by giving them the associated US Snowboard boot size (always different from US shoe size) simply because every major manufacturer does list this size prominently on packaging." I would never say that they do this because the US is the intended market. We are part of the intended market but a relatively small part. We, like all snowboard companies subscribe to industry services which provide us with relevant data that is required to effectively operate in a very competitive space.

Regarding Mondopoint as the only sizing for design of snowboard boots, that is 100% common knowledge with everyone that has active involvement in snowboard boot production. What I have told you is a fact. We produce in factories alongside numerous brands, I go to the factories, I work with them, and I say this with direct knowledge and full confidence. I asked your experience only to confirm that you were operating on your thoughts alone.

Thanks again!
Can you show us any part of this data (provided by those industry services) proving that Mondopoint really is the snowboarding industry standard and not only your own brands standard?

I am not operating only on my thoughts, I told you that I analyzed all your posts, your posts in this forum alone provide a fairly sized dataset. Regarding the fitment issues at the upper and lower end of the spectrum, how do you explain the discrepancies you experienced yourself then? Your claim is inconsistent with your own experience, but my method of using ISO chart and converting to US-size from there is fully able to explain those outliars and the 90%

Just like me saying I'm smart doesn't prove anything, you saying you have full confidence doesn't either.

Anyways, I don't think we will be able to move forward from here because you're obviously not willing to change your mind and not willing to present a proof either. But you have the support of 90% you made happy and that I can not argue against, not that I ever intended to. I don't want anyone to see this as a fight against you, or an attempt to replace your authority, but some of your happy followers (and believe me I'm also one of them) will be more inclined to see this as such, especially after my last comments, so it's better for me to stop here.

Still I'm not convinced and will keep using my method. I'm glad we did this and I've been able to put my perspective out here, which you couldn't disprove so I have more confidence in it now, served me well hopefully someone else too. In the end, it's just an idea, maybe it gets proven 10 years from now, maybe it gets lost in the blackhole doesn't matter. And thank you all for your time.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Returning to the OP, I agree that we need more WIDE boots. But I think what we need more is standardization. More details and better explanations on how the boots were designed to fit.

All ski boot manufacturers publish standardized flex ratings, foot length, shell length and width as well as insole volume ratings. What we have is just one number with zero explanation.

We should do better than that, it takes a few too many trials and errors for us to find the perfect boot, don't you think?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,671 Posts
Hi Comp,

Humbly, we have hit almost 100% success here in boot sizing. You are inclined to return to the use of a conversion for sizing boots and I would strongly suggest against using any conversion. Simply use the Mondopoint standard and you know your size. That is the beauty of Mondopoint.

Have a wonderful season!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
No need to be humble, as long as you're honest... This is you from 2017, you go to such extreme lengths to explain the discrepancy here, but don't even consider there might be something off with your idea?

Thanks for those measurement images. You are firmly into Mondo 240 range with a C width. I have written this before but things get a little wierd at the smaller side of the women's boot market. Frankly, very little attention is paid to these boots on the design end and often the smaller sizes are entirely untested, downsized designs. This is made worse by the fact that many manufacturers still "upsize" women's boots to ease the sales process. By that I mean that the mindset is that women will not struggle with a boot to get in or deal with an overly aggressive fit. Therefore you see a lot more emphasis on cushy and comfort in the marketing and you see many super oversized boots being sold.
I can dig out many posts like this but I won't. They're all here unless you delete them. Your success rate is 90% and that's nearly as good as 100% now let's leave all this behind shall we?

Don't you think our boots should be classified in better detail like ski boots are? Or do you think there's no need for further improvement? What's your take on this?
 
1321 - 1340 of 1356 Posts
Top