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Hi Comp,

Possibly I am too easy on myself but I view that as a wonderful example. I try be entirely up front about all of the spots where people could likely get stuck with sizing. Small women's boots are a terrible one, particularly for wide feet. Please read the reasons that are mentioned in my post that you quoted. We didn't miss with that one, we just know that we can't help that person much online so we let her know. Fortunately it is a very small segment of the market where we have to alert people that we won't be able to offer much help.

Please read this thread from 2015: 6 Things

We have always Banged the Drum for Mondo but we used to hope that a more accurate conversion might also be used. We have since moved to a laser focus on Mondopoint only with no conversion because it always works. We point out the exceptions when they exist. Another exception is riders who have widths above EEE width or less commonly extremely narrow feet. We can't help there and we need to go off Mondopoint. No one system will work in those instances. We can't let perfect be the enemy of great.

As you have mentioned, we put ourselves publicly out there every day with our methods and our success rate is on display for all to consider. I encourage you to look at my 5600 posts here and I know that you will find a record of success in sizing that is more than unusual anywhere but specifically online. Online we expose ourselves to anonymous critique for the very reason that we want to help. We feel enormously fortunate to have found snowboarding over 30 years ago. We now ride with our daughter and our grandkids. To be able to earn a living with our involvement in the greatest sport in the world is a dream come true. Our goal here is to promote enjoyment of the sport and we know that poorly sized gear can turn people off. We also know that we can get it right for them.

After reading back a while, I hope that you become convinced but, if not I will have to let it go at that.

STOKED!
 

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I'm totally with you on this one, you're doing your part and I'm doing mine... I absolutely get what you're doing and respect your wisdom. All your advices here on this very forum helped me shape my view on the subject more than anything else, so I thank you sincerely.
 

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Puff puff give brothers :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

I made some big improvements yesterday by adding 6mm of neoprene to the side of the ball of my foot
155526

It works by shifting my foot to the outside of the boot and that stops my big toe from being forced into a rounded toe cap.

After testing proved it to be a great success I went ahead and glued the neoprene to the liner.
155527


This is a good fix for people with a straight big toe like me.
 

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Hi Kijima,

Black toenails are almost always caused by too large a boot. The subtle but repetitive fore/aft movement inside the boot causes this. 27.1 cm is the smallest size in the range for Mondopoint 275 which is size 9.5 US in snowboard boots. The range for Mondopoint 275 is 27.1 to 27.5 cm. .1 cm (1 mm) smaller and you would be a size 9 (based on these measurements). Have you posted up your images of your foot measurements?

STOKED!
I understand the theory but I have to strongly disagree with your recommendation to downsize.
You are ignoring my other foot which is perfectly happy in the same size boot, so if we have one foot happy and one foot unhappy, let's find out what the difference is.

In my case the unhappy foot is 27.1cm long and the happy foot is 26.9cm long. So a 2mm difference.
Now let's apply your theory to this problem. The boot is too big allowing my feet to slide forward and bang on the end of the boot, and the cure is a smaller boot. The upside is that it MAY hold my foot in place better disallowing the theoretical slide, the downside is that the end of the boot just moved closer to my big toe, so any reduction in slide will be undone by the newfound proximity of the toe cap.

So by paying attention to the happy foot, and noting that the extra 2mm of clearance it has is enough for it to never have a problem, you could assume that creating similar clearance on the painful side would fix the problem.
This is how my brain sees it anyway, following your advice would have me in a world of pain very quickly.

My issue is not one of total length but one of foot shape vs toe box shape. The straight big toe gets jammed into the rounded corner of the toe box. That rounded corner of the toe box is NOT the longest point of the boot, it is shorter and that is precisely why my 27.1cm foot is banging on the end of a 28cm boot.

Now let's have a look.
This is my foot bed.
155530


This is my foot on the footbed showing a nice length, but my big toe is in the middle of the footbed.
155531


This is my foot in its proper location on the footbed, you can see how my big toe is taking up real estate that just does not exist inside the rounded toe box of the boot and therein lies the problem.
155532
 

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To add, and so we can actually all learn something from this, is not to assume that a person's foot can actually use 100% of the available length. Boots and shoes are always rounded and sometimes feet are not.
Sometimes that last 1cm of boot length is needed for reasons other than total length of foot.
 

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Hi Kajima,

271 mm is the smallest size in the range for 9.5. 26.9 is towards the upper range for size 9. Your foot is actually the most common shape with no unusual anatomy visible (in socks). We mention the rounded toe box of all boots very frequently. It is part of what makes wide boots a necessity when they are indicated. Your inserts confirm what we expect to see from the sizing above. We will typically see ~ 1cm of barefoot (not in socks) overhang of the insert (foot ~1 cm longer than the insert).

All snowboard boot liners are designed to have the foot firmly pressing into them both toe an heel. A thermoform heat fit will have no impact if the foot is not pressing into it as described.

It is not at all uncommon for a rider's two feet of the same or similar size to have discomfort or bruising on only one foot when in a boot that is too large. Any part of the unique anatomy of either foot can keep it from moving inside the boot. In a correctly fit pair this motion will be eliminated.

We always like to begin with all 4 barefoot measurements and barefoot images of those measurements being taken. I will be happy to have a look if you would like to post that info (or if you already have please link me).

STOKED!
 

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I agree that this might not be the solution you're looking for, I have 2 concerns

1) By supporting your foot from the side like this, you're reducing the spread of your feet under your own weight by a few mm's. You've taken the measurements standing on your foot and found the length to be 271 but now with the side support it's more like 268 and Wired is right, you have space in front that needs to be filled, you won't realize this testing on the carpet but it will become an issue on the snow.

2) Shape of your feet is result of the length of various bones in your feet, and how your body adapts to distribute your weight onto them. This may or may not be an issue but you can get aching arches after a long day on the snow.

How I would do is, rather than using 6mm foam on one side, use 3mm all around, also covering the tip of the liner. Just like a ballet shoe supporting the tip of your foot all around.

If you still get problem spots after that you can add/remove more foam locally around those spots but keeping the overall support intact. I'm sure you've watched Angry Snowboarder's Boot Fitting 101 series on Youtube, but do it if you haven't.

In any case, let us know how you get by when you find a chance to test your modifications on the slopes. I'm also working around a similar issue myself.
 

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Hi Kajima,

271 mm is the smallest size in the range for 9.5. 26.9 is towards the upper range for size 9. Your foot is actually the most common shape with no unusual anatomy visible (in socks). We mention the rounded toe box of all boots very frequently. It is part of what makes wide boots a necessity when they are indicated. Your inserts confirm what we expect to see from the sizing above. We will typically see ~ 1cm of barefoot (not in socks) overhang of the insert (foot ~1 cm longer than the insert).

All snowboard boot liners are designed to have the foot firmly pressing into them both toe an heel. A thermoform heat fit will have no impact if the foot is not pressing into it as described.

It is not at all uncommon for a rider's two feet of the same or similar size to have discomfort or bruising on only one foot when in a boot that is too large. Any part of the unique anatomy of either foot can keep it from moving inside the boot. In a correctly fit pair this motion will be eliminated.

We always like to begin with all 4 barefoot measurements and barefoot images of those measurements being taken. I will be happy to have a look if you would like to post that info (or if you already have please link me).

STOKED!
My right foot is perfectly happy with its 2mm extra clearance, I find it hard to fathom how your recommendation of smaller boots will improve the situation. I get that you are blaming foot slide for the problem but I disagree, and I am blaming round toe box for the problem.

Let's do some free thinking rather than roll out the template again.
Let's call the gap between my left, painful toe and the boot shell "x".
Let's call the gap between my right, non painful toe and the boot shell "x+2mm"
"x" has proven to create pain.
"x+2mm" has proven not to create pain.

Now your recommendation is to go down in size, lets conservatively say down 4mm.
This will create a situation where "x" turns in to "x-4", and "x+2" turns in to "x-2"
When "x+2" is the goal, we just moved in the wrong direction no?
 

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Hi Kajima,

Correct, we would not have moved in the wrong direction. We would have moved you to a position where your foot will have firm pressure into the compliant materials of the liner. That will provide the best fit. A few notes. I do not yet know your measurements. It isn't possible for me to offer any truly meaningful advice without the 4 images that we request on each of these threads. Also important, once a toe is bruised, it will be painful until fully healed when any pressure is applied to it.

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Hi Kajima,

Correct, we would not have moved in the wrong direction. We would have moved you to a position where your foot will have firm pressure into the compliant materials of the liner.

STOKED!
And my big toe will be jammed into the round toe box of the shell even worse than it is now. Such an obvious mismatch of toe shape and toe box shape should not be ignored IMO. A square does not fit neatly inside a circle.

I would love to be proven wrong and downsize my boots trust me, it would help me out in other aspects of snowboarding but common sense tells me I will be left selling a pair of boots online because they are too small.

I will quit before we waste any more of each others time and report back after I have some time on snow. If I am wrong I will take it like a man and admit I was wrong.
 

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Also important, once a toe is bruised, it will be painful until fully healed when any pressure is applied to it.
^ This

And you can not simplify your situation to the extent x+2 vs x-2, you have to take into account which foot is your leading foot, which toe is the downslope toe, gravity is acting at an angle when you're on the slope you know. Also your weight rolls all around when you're making turns, so even a few degrees of stance angle difference can change the pressure points around your foot.
 

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^ This

And you can not simplify your situation to the extent x+2 vs x-2, you have to take into account which foot is your leading foot, which toe is the downslope toe, gravity is acting at an angle when you're on the slope you know. Also your weight rolls all around when you're making turns, so even a few degrees of stance angle difference can change the pressure points around your foot.
Dude that post is a literary smoke bomb.
Just lay the facts on the table please.

Is a leading foot prone to more or less pain?
What is a downslope toe?
I am aware of gravity and centrifugal forces.
I am aware my weight rolls around during a turn.
Does more stance angle reduce or increase pressure points?
 

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Dude that post is a literary smoke bomb.
Just lay the facts on the table please.

Is a leading foot prone to more or less pain?
What is a downslope toe?
I am aware of gravity and centrifugal forces.
I am aware my weight rolls around during a turn.
Does more stance angle reduce or increase pressure points?
This all depends on your anatomy and your riding style, there is no one size fits all solution. You have to test, assess, modify and repeat to get to the bottom of your problem. Usually leading foot is more prone to pain since it carries more of your body weight. But if you're using a wide duck stance (wider than your anatomy allows) you'll try to twist your rear foot into a more forward stance involuntarily and that can also create toe pressure. Exact opposite is also true, if you're using a forward stance and putting more weight onto your rear foot, like when you're riding powder, then you can get the pain on your rear foot again.

As I said, test, assess, modify and repeat. You'll find your problem.
 

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And my big toe will be jammed into the round toe box of the shell even worse than it is now. Such an obvious mismatch of toe shape and toe box shape should not be ignored IMO. A square does not fit neatly inside a circle.

I would love to be proven wrong and downsize my boots trust me, it would help me out in other aspects of snowboarding but common sense tells me I will be left selling a pair of boots online because they are too small.

I will quit before we waste any more of each others time and report back after I have some time on snow. If I am wrong I will take it like a man and admit I was wrong.
Hi Kajima,

No worries at all if this isn't for you. Please do let me know though, are these wide boots? Have we measured you as having a wide foot? Sorry, I don't recall. The reason that I am interested relates directly to toebox shape. I have written this here a number of times so if you have already read it please disregard.

For a wide foot the correct mondopoint size will effectively be too short for the outer toes if a sufficiently wide boot is not worn. That is due to the very arc of the toebox that you are referencing. At the outer toes too narrow a boot will be too short at the correct Mondopoint length. I think I have posted a graphic of this here as well. The answer in those instances is the correct wide boot or in some instances an Asian fit boot. We never upsize from Mondopoint length to solve width issues unless over EEE wher we have no options. Possibly relevant to you, wide boots always get a flatter, wider tipped toebox. I won't know if that is your answer until I see your feet but I would encourage you to post those images or at the very least sockless measurements.

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Discussion Starter #1,356 (Edited)
My right foot is perfectly happy with its 2mm extra clearance, I find it hard to fathom how your recommendation of smaller boots will improve the situation. I get that you are blaming foot slide for the problem but I disagree, and I am blaming round toe box for the problem.

Let's do some free thinking rather than roll out the template again.
Let's call the gap between my left, painful toe and the boot shell "x".
Let's call the gap between my right, non painful toe and the boot shell "x+2mm"
"x" has proven to create pain.
"x+2mm" has proven not to create pain.

Now your recommendation is to go down in size, lets conservatively say down 4mm.
This will create a situation where "x" turns in to "x-4", and "x+2" turns in to "x-2"
When "x+2" is the goal, we just moved in the wrong direction no?
If you haven’t already, you really should post up pics of your feet being measured (without socks). As Wired stated, your feet should have 1cm of overhang on the footbed, which yours doesn’t appear to have (regardless of shape of foot). Also, without socks, it’ll be easier to see irregularities that can be addressed.

In the case of my toenail getting wrecked, my left foot is a half size bigger than my right. Both feet pressed firmly into the front of the boot, but my left pressed much more firmly (and was overhanging the footbed too much). Acccording to accurate and confirmed measurements, I needed a half size bigger boot on my left side. I could have just dealt with it, but my toe was suffering too much. So, I bit the bullet and bought the correct size to accommodate my left foot. As mentioned above, I have two different sized boots that I’m using.

The less your foot is able to move around, the better. Not only for performance, but for the safety of your feet (and ankles). You really should post up your measurements without socks to really confirm everything before Frankenstein’ing your boots. By all means, that may work, but it’s important to get to the root of the issue first - which is almost always correct sizing. The smaller boot seems counterintuitive, but trust the process! Also, you should be using the thinnest possible socks when snowboarding. That, too, seems counterintuitive but it’s a fact.

Also, in other news, I’m really into rollerblading (sick, right? Lol) and I actually got my first correctly sized skates in my life using Wired’s method of measurement. I wear super thin socks now with those and having correctly sized skates is life changing also. A quality fitter for my skates (in Canada) also said my toes should be firmly pressed up into the liner as they will open up with use. Now, my left big toenail is getting wrecked again (still currently black and blue) but that’s because I need two differently sized skates (not gonna happen). They feel great unless I jam into a pothole. Just some more anecdotal evidence I wanted to share that the sizing is correct, and measuring in mondopoint works.


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