Nice write up. I especially like the part about “passing the skiers.”
The hardboot ride...downhill?
Just some thoughts on riding in hardboots...since I haven't seen much but the statement that the ride down is less than desirable than with soft boots.
Thoughts on hardboot riding:
So currently have 6 days with hards-on...its like taking Viagra. Moi, 60yrs, 5”6”, 172 lbs (goal to get to 160), boot size 24 mondo, stance +15, -6, width 23.5, 17 seasons, gezzerily freeriding advanced a with the goal of getting off the hill, i.e., surviving in one piece after the day at Mt Baker.
Equipment:
Atomic Backland boots women’s non-carbon, mondo24, professionally heat moulded shells (highly recommended Frank at BackCountry Essentials), liners and bits of foam bits with Sole aftermarket insoles….socks are thin smart wool liners (not socks).
Amplid Creamer 163, self-cut diy split with pro inserts done by Johnny Lupo at Boardworks (highly recommended). Standard plastic K clips at the nose/tail and Sparks R&D CrossBars clamps.
Phantom Bindings, small, with the 3in1 cleats, their risers and the Dynafit tech toes.
Just a couple remarks about the board with Phantoms…frick’s outstanding…light, love creamer’s cam profile…it rips and with the Phamtoms and Spark Crossbars…it rides just like a solid. I had ridden ½ season on the Creamer as a solid with softboots 32 focus boas women 7.5 and some old metal Ride SPI’s and loved it…and then cut it in half on my tablesaw.
Hard boot fitting and mods:
Well the boots after the initial heat fitting, felt great in the shop…but on the hill there were immediate hot spots and heel lift. Back home and to the shop, did a few tweaks…better but still some spots and my foot did not have the locked down feeling…thus feeling abit discouraged, questioning my decision to go the hardboot route and thinking the reports were true, i.e., hard boots definitely had something to be desired when in ride mode. A two more days of bringing scissors, foam and bits of tape to the hill with trips to the lodge to do some cutting and adjustments…much improved. Lastly, at home, another 2-3 hours of fitment and sanding foam bits, final positioning, glue up of the foam bits to the liner and then covered with hurricane nylon tape. In general, the bits and pieces ended up being similar to all the mods that I’ve done to my soft boot liners (see the old pics to the liners in the boot faq thread, pics in link of the first post).
The Fitment:
So yesterday, spent the day with the set up…and it felt great, no taking the boots off, foot felt locked down, plenty of room for the toots, no hot spots, felt like my soft boot slippers but stiffer and more responsive. With the boots in ride mode, plastic tongue removed/not used, power strap was used but slack loose, leg cuff set comfortably but not cinched down for some room for play, (used a bit of foam on the liner’s tongue that helps push the foot back and keeps the heel in the pocket) and not using the liner’s lacing system. And the lower buckle hooked up. So basically, using the boot as it was designed. ***The 2 key pieces of fitment were getting the heel/ankle locked down with a ½ butterfly foam and using foam on the tongue’s liner to help push/keep the heel in to the pocket. So in general, when boots are tightened up there is plenty of room for the foot and the lower leg is snug. And then in the bent knee ride position the foot is pushed back in to the pocket.
The Boot Ride:
It is fantastic, the board runs like an arrow, straight and true. A ton of control and response, which I like and the adjustment time was about ½ day. On chopped terrain, there is a lot less wiggling and squirrling; the focus is more of absorption via sucking up the knees and riding low and attending to keeping your body’s stack and alignment flowing the line. Blasting groomers is a blast, the stiffness of the boot is confidence inspiring and assured. Heelside or toeside…just lean into the stiffness of the boot’s cuff and let it leverage your running edge and let the board run. A quick speed check and pop back on the running edge…no problem. Quick and short S turns and cross-unders are fast and again assured. As for big arching trenches….just initiate, set and feel the G’s suck you down. Within 3-4 runs I was blasting groomers an estimated 10mph faster, confidently and comfortably hitting 60 mph. A few more runs and was able to keep up and pass some of skiers in the crew…letting the board run to its capacity and then being able to play with drag, i.e., standing up to slow down or squat/tuck to reduce air drag…this was on day 4 and the boots were hurting from pressure points on the instep, hotspot on the ankle bone and with some significant heel lift. But, it was fun blasting the fall line, stand straight up and then getting ready to go airborne over the rollers. Day 5 was spent doing a run or 2 and then going back in to the lodge and making adjustments with scissors, foam and tape and then going back out for a run or two. The this past week spent an afternoon’s 2-3 hours doing the final tweaking. Yesterday’s 5-6 inches of fresh dry powder at 21 degrees F…only issue is the bigness of yer smile…whether hitting groomed to the next pow pactch, aggressively hitting off piste steeps of hairy scary, lower chicken ridge, upper gunner’s or gabl’s. The boots stayed on all day. The buckles were unlatched for 30 minute lunch and then just quickly re-buckled and ready to ride the rest of the afternoon….it was easier and more comfortable than loosening the inter laces and boas of the 32 and then re-tightening it all.
The Cons:
Price of entry is steep for the Atomic Backlands (found the prior year’s for 50% discount), Amplid Creamer (found a prior years solid board that was a lightly used demo for 50% discount). And the prior years Phantom binding system for 30% discount (due to the seller had purchased smalls and they were a tad too small). All this cheapness took about 1 year and I had to wait for a set of 3in1 cleats because they were sold out and due to the Creamer being a diy split :facepalm1:.
On heelside, there is a bit of calf bite, especially on long heelside traverses, but otherwise its not noticeable perhaps due to having fun otherwise.
As for boot fitting and mods…I haven’t felt there is any reason for major mods of cutting down cuffs, making slits for increasing lateral flex; but there is a commitment and perseverance that is required to get the fitment dialed in. it took 6 days of riding (the first 4 were painful), an initial 1 hour bootfitter heating and modding, aftermarket insoles, 2nd trip to the boot fitters for some major foam mods…from C’s to L’s (even tried a heel lift…NO) and then a 3rd trip for half butterflies and then 2 days of diy on mtn fitting with foam and scissors and lastly, 2-3 hours of at home final adjustments. Yesterday’s the boots were fitting like golden slippers. However, I’m expecting the liners to pack out a bit more and the plan is then to up my socks from thin merino liners to smartwool phd ultra light socks and/or maybe use/re-insert the plastic tongues or perhaps a 1/8” boot shim under the liner.
The Summary:
I am a fan of the Atomic Backland (non carbon) hardboots. If you can afford and don’t mind the price of entry…there is a significate increase in performance and with some determination these boots were able to be modded to fit like and perform better than my softboots. So at least for me, been able to dispel the thought that the hardboot ride down is less than using soft boots. Infact thinking about how to convert my resort boards to using the Atomic non carbon Backlands.
Side notes:
Instead of the Phantom Alpha Ride system a person could go with their current solid board, use the One Binding solid puck system and use the Spark tesla Dyna DH hardboot bindings. Thus kind of looking to pick up some Spark Dyna DH to use on my solid boards and an old alpine race board.
Also the Phantom system, has tight tolerances; in transitioning from tour to ride mode, you have to make sure your board halves are lined up perfectly, otherwise the plates will not rotate on to the cleats. And there is the rear foot heelside bail that is a tad of a pain, in that when you go to clamp in, the rear bail tends to fall/drop/not catch and it takes 1-2 times to make sure you got the bail caught. To which I’ve been thinking of wrapping the bail with a piece of rubberized electrical/wiring tape, the part that fits under the block or perhaps seeing if the bail/to block could be spot welded for a more permanent solution.
In researching, the SplitBoard Fourm, there are some ideas to make the Atomic Backland highback latch to be progressive on heelside from a “hard stop” to spring loaded and also being a progressive forward flex…and also a having an adjustable forward lean with the latch (…haven’t seen it but it is rumored that Phantom is tinkering with an aftermarket latch that will work on the Atomic Backland boots). Any it will be interesting to see what they develop and it could be a nice thing…but not a necessity.
I’d recommend considereing the new Phantom/Sparks colab tech toes instead of the Dynafit tech toes due to less parts and re-inforced areas.
Anyway moi 2 cents :hairy:
Thoughts on hardboot riding:
So currently have 6 days with hards-on...its like taking Viagra. Moi, 60yrs, 5”6”, 172 lbs (goal to get to 160), boot size 24 mondo, stance +15, -6, width 23.5, 17 seasons, gezzerily freeriding advanced a with the goal of getting off the hill, i.e., surviving in one piece after the day at Mt Baker.
Equipment:
Atomic Backland boots women’s non-carbon, mondo24, professionally heat moulded shells (highly recommended Frank at BackCountry Essentials), liners and bits of foam bits with Sole aftermarket insoles….socks are thin smart wool liners (not socks).
Amplid Creamer 163, self-cut diy split with pro inserts done by Johnny Lupo at Boardworks (highly recommended). Standard plastic K clips at the nose/tail and Sparks R&D CrossBars clamps.
Phantom Bindings, small, with the 3in1 cleats, their risers and the Dynafit tech toes.
Just a couple remarks about the board with Phantoms…frick’s outstanding…light, love creamer’s cam profile…it rips and with the Phamtoms and Spark Crossbars…it rides just like a solid. I had ridden ½ season on the Creamer as a solid with softboots 32 focus boas women 7.5 and some old metal Ride SPI’s and loved it…and then cut it in half on my tablesaw.
Hard boot fitting and mods:
Well the boots after the initial heat fitting, felt great in the shop…but on the hill there were immediate hot spots and heel lift. Back home and to the shop, did a few tweaks…better but still some spots and my foot did not have the locked down feeling…thus feeling abit discouraged, questioning my decision to go the hardboot route and thinking the reports were true, i.e., hard boots definitely had something to be desired when in ride mode. A two more days of bringing scissors, foam and bits of tape to the hill with trips to the lodge to do some cutting and adjustments…much improved. Lastly, at home, another 2-3 hours of fitment and sanding foam bits, final positioning, glue up of the foam bits to the liner and then covered with hurricane nylon tape. In general, the bits and pieces ended up being similar to all the mods that I’ve done to my soft boot liners (see the old pics to the liners in the boot faq thread, pics in link of the first post).
The Fitment:
So yesterday, spent the day with the set up…and it felt great, no taking the boots off, foot felt locked down, plenty of room for the toots, no hot spots, felt like my soft boot slippers but stiffer and more responsive. With the boots in ride mode, plastic tongue removed/not used, power strap was used but slack loose, leg cuff set comfortably but not cinched down for some room for play, (used a bit of foam on the liner’s tongue that helps push the foot back and keeps the heel in the pocket) and not using the liner’s lacing system. And the lower buckle hooked up. So basically, using the boot as it was designed. ***The 2 key pieces of fitment were getting the heel/ankle locked down with a ½ butterfly foam and using foam on the tongue’s liner to help push/keep the heel in to the pocket. So in general, when boots are tightened up there is plenty of room for the foot and the lower leg is snug. And then in the bent knee ride position the foot is pushed back in to the pocket.
The Boot Ride:
It is fantastic, the board runs like an arrow, straight and true. A ton of control and response, which I like and the adjustment time was about ½ day. On chopped terrain, there is a lot less wiggling and squirrling; the focus is more of absorption via sucking up the knees and riding low and attending to keeping your body’s stack and alignment flowing the line. Blasting groomers is a blast, the stiffness of the boot is confidence inspiring and assured. Heelside or toeside…just lean into the stiffness of the boot’s cuff and let it leverage your running edge and let the board run. A quick speed check and pop back on the running edge…no problem. Quick and short S turns and cross-unders are fast and again assured. As for big arching trenches….just initiate, set and feel the G’s suck you down. Within 3-4 runs I was blasting groomers an estimated 10mph faster, confidently and comfortably hitting 60 mph. A few more runs and was able to keep up and pass some of skiers in the crew…letting the board run to its capacity and then being able to play with drag, i.e., standing up to slow down or squat/tuck to reduce air drag…this was on day 4 and the boots were hurting from pressure points on the instep, hotspot on the ankle bone and with some significant heel lift. But, it was fun blasting the fall line, stand straight up and then getting ready to go airborne over the rollers. Day 5 was spent doing a run or 2 and then going back in to the lodge and making adjustments with scissors, foam and tape and then going back out for a run or two. The this past week spent an afternoon’s 2-3 hours doing the final tweaking. Yesterday’s 5-6 inches of fresh dry powder at 21 degrees F…only issue is the bigness of yer smile…whether hitting groomed to the next pow pactch, aggressively hitting off piste steeps of hairy scary, lower chicken ridge, upper gunner’s or gabl’s. The boots stayed on all day. The buckles were unlatched for 30 minute lunch and then just quickly re-buckled and ready to ride the rest of the afternoon….it was easier and more comfortable than loosening the inter laces and boas of the 32 and then re-tightening it all.
The Cons:
Price of entry is steep for the Atomic Backlands (found the prior year’s for 50% discount), Amplid Creamer (found a prior years solid board that was a lightly used demo for 50% discount). And the prior years Phantom binding system for 30% discount (due to the seller had purchased smalls and they were a tad too small). All this cheapness took about 1 year and I had to wait for a set of 3in1 cleats because they were sold out and due to the Creamer being a diy split :facepalm1:.
On heelside, there is a bit of calf bite, especially on long heelside traverses, but otherwise its not noticeable perhaps due to having fun otherwise.
As for boot fitting and mods…I haven’t felt there is any reason for major mods of cutting down cuffs, making slits for increasing lateral flex; but there is a commitment and perseverance that is required to get the fitment dialed in. it took 6 days of riding (the first 4 were painful), an initial 1 hour bootfitter heating and modding, aftermarket insoles, 2nd trip to the boot fitters for some major foam mods…from C’s to L’s (even tried a heel lift…NO) and then a 3rd trip for half butterflies and then 2 days of diy on mtn fitting with foam and scissors and lastly, 2-3 hours of at home final adjustments. Yesterday’s the boots were fitting like golden slippers. However, I’m expecting the liners to pack out a bit more and the plan is then to up my socks from thin merino liners to smartwool phd ultra light socks and/or maybe use/re-insert the plastic tongues or perhaps a 1/8” boot shim under the liner.
The Summary:
I am a fan of the Atomic Backland (non carbon) hardboots. If you can afford and don’t mind the price of entry…there is a significate increase in performance and with some determination these boots were able to be modded to fit like and perform better than my softboots. So at least for me, been able to dispel the thought that the hardboot ride down is less than using soft boots. Infact thinking about how to convert my resort boards to using the Atomic non carbon Backlands.
Side notes:
Instead of the Phantom Alpha Ride system a person could go with their current solid board, use the One Binding solid puck system and use the Spark tesla Dyna DH hardboot bindings. Thus kind of looking to pick up some Spark Dyna DH to use on my solid boards and an old alpine race board.
Also the Phantom system, has tight tolerances; in transitioning from tour to ride mode, you have to make sure your board halves are lined up perfectly, otherwise the plates will not rotate on to the cleats. And there is the rear foot heelside bail that is a tad of a pain, in that when you go to clamp in, the rear bail tends to fall/drop/not catch and it takes 1-2 times to make sure you got the bail caught. To which I’ve been thinking of wrapping the bail with a piece of rubberized electrical/wiring tape, the part that fits under the block or perhaps seeing if the bail/to block could be spot welded for a more permanent solution.
In researching, the SplitBoard Fourm, there are some ideas to make the Atomic Backland highback latch to be progressive on heelside from a “hard stop” to spring loaded and also being a progressive forward flex…and also a having an adjustable forward lean with the latch (…haven’t seen it but it is rumored that Phantom is tinkering with an aftermarket latch that will work on the Atomic Backland boots). Any it will be interesting to see what they develop and it could be a nice thing…but not a necessity.
I’d recommend considereing the new Phantom/Sparks colab tech toes instead of the Dynafit tech toes due to less parts and re-inforced areas.
Anyway moi 2 cents :hairy:
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