I think I kind of understand what you are trying to say. Foot peddling is not familiar to me. Could you explain that? I understand the shoulder thing though.

With the shoulder technique, I really don't think that you should abandon that. Shoulder steering is important for many situations especially if you are doing freestyle. Spins, butters, and jibbing requires you to turn your hips and shoulders to perform these maneuvers. Also, while you are carving, I don't see how it would be possible to do deep and tight carves without the use of your hips and shoulders. For normal skidded turns and just general cruising I can understand just using your feet. That's how I ride when I'm going mellow. I rock my board from toe edge to heel edge with my feet while still going straight. Is that what you are talking about?

 

upper body works on steeps with retraction of the lower body.

Foot steering is nice, but I feel the "key" is upper and lower body seperation.

• Upper body stays balanced in the direction of travel
• Lower body flexes and extends to handle the what the board is doing

and leading stems from the eyes (where are you going) to the upper body getting balanced to the lower body absorbing the dynamics of the sidecut and reaction to the snow. So for ME I work from the top down not the other way around. But I never passed my instructor exams even though I can always school the schoolers. What do I really know, is just what works for me.

 

Totally agree with this post.

I just don't understand why instructors over there are making you abandon upper body steering.

 

I should start by saying that I'm not an instructor

My first intro to foot steering was a DVD call Go Snowboard. It has some pretty good instruction for turning, from beginner to advanced, all based around using the feet to control the board. Which I'm assuming is what people have collectively called "foot steering".

They highlight 3 elements:
- pressure control
- edge control
- steering

The steering part is where the term "peddling" comes from - as they liken it to one foot pushing down, as if on a peddle, while the other foot lifts up, in opposition.

I always thought their introduction for beginners was quite "technical", but the advice for intermediate and advanced turning is excellent.

I later found that this method seems to be the approach adopted by British instructors, which is where the interest leading to this post came from.

It's a while ago now, but I wrote a review of the DVD if you're interested:
Go Snowboard Instructional DVD

Cheers, Gavin

 

YES, driving that center of mass down the fall line is all I "think about" when riding.

 

Your hips and shoulders are what make snowboarding fun when you get good. By being able to manipulate both body segments and throw your whole weight in the right direction at the right time, you can achieve huge carves, powder slashes, freestyle moves. I can understand maybe for the beginner to stick to foot steering, but if you try and not use your shoulders I think your only going to cripple your riding.

 

Actually, in my experience, most movement originates in the hips. Then the legs/shoulders follow from this.

Try a little experiment next time you are out riding to see if its true. With a centered stance, try turning using your 'core', your hips and abs. Then try turning focusing just on your legs, and try turning focusing just on your upper body.

Really, the upper body/lower body thing is not that important. Its all one movement, it shouldn't be broken up. Its good to focus on specific things like shoulders and knees to see how they affect turning, but in the end, its just one body moving at adapt to snow, terrain, and equipment.

As for pedaling, i never learned that as a beginner practice, it takes a fair bit of balance to do it well. I use it for introducing light carving.

 

To be honest, I couldn't explain how I ride all that well. It just comes naturally you know?

 

The reason is that your feet are closer to the board and snow so movements like flexing or extending your ankles will cause the board to make contact with the snow quicker then an upper body movement(Much more effeceint and effective). You still want your shoulders to be making the movement in the same direction as you are turning unless the riding task(i.e. doing a basic turn, popping a 180, etc.) calls for a different movement.

It probably isn't so much that they have moved away from teaching upper body as the emphasis and how they talk about it has changed.

 

Yeah, it's my understanding that the feet ultimately control the board.

Some instructors use basic upper body movements to effect movement of the feet, which will then control the board. Other instructors teach the direct manipulation of the feet ("Foot steering").

For example, I think (not totally sure on this) that the CASI start beginners with Shoulder Steering, but move to Foot Steering later on, at a more advanced level.

Just to be clear, I know that a lot of stuff in snowboarding requires upper body movements, and I know that the upper body must be dynamic during turning... but I don't think turning the upper body is required to make turns or carves, with the foot steering approach.

There's a pretty good carving example here:
YouTube - Advanced Snowboarding Tips : How to Carve on a Snowboard

 

You're correct. Upper body use isn't required for normal carves. If you just want the sidecut to do the turn radius for you, then use just your lower body. If you want deeper, tighter carves, upper body is going to come into play.

Also, how do you navigate mogul fields? How is one to whip the tail around and make almost 90 degree alternating turns without using upper body or hips?

I want to see someone riding a mogul field using purely foot steering without launching off one head on.

 

I want to see someone riding a mogul field using purely foot steering without launching off one head on.

Good point

Sure, there are times when you need the upper body, especially for freestyle, but also for riding...

So just going back to the start of the thread, I'd say the concepts of both foot steering and shoulder steering are known of/discussed/used, over in the U.S and Canada...

Thanks for all the input guys!

 

I just think learning all the mechanics is a good idea. It just seemed to me that you were saying that the instructors completely srubbed upper body out of the turning/carving picture.

 

Yeah, in some ways I think they have. I'm pretty sure the BASI approach (british association) focusses entirely on foot steering.

Like I said though, I'm not an instructor, and I haven't seen instructors teaching people to ride in more varied situations, like moguls for example.

But - that was the reason for the original post - to see what people think, see if it sounds strange, see if anyone knows the CASI/AASI approach on this, etc.

What I'd like to see is someone showing good carving technique on a really steep, hard run. In all the videos they pick some blue run or something and make the turns look good.

I can do that. I want to see it on something really hard

Cheers

 

What I'd like to see is someone showing good carving technique on a really steep, hard run. In all the videos they pick some blue run or something and make the turns look good.

I can do that. I want to see it on something really hard

Cheers

Can see it all the time in the movies, but for us mere mortals it hard to catch on tape due to the terrain, speed and no heli...sometimes from the chair...however you can see evidence of good carving by looking at the lines drawn. The other thing is that dropping big lines is usually done on good pow days where you probably do more leveraged carving instead of foot work.

I get to see folks drop this line and the like quite frequently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk_MTbAgaYQ

 

I hope Snowolf chimes in soon. He's our resident instructor and is really good at explaining these things. He has a few videos of harder terrain.

 

Leading with your lower body and feet make absolute sense. However, what we are trying to figure out is why abandon upper body movement altogether? Do you guys instruct against upper body movement in all situations (minus freestyle)?

 

when i use to teach beginners a lot i would have them always keep their shoulders stacked over the board until they became more comfortable riders to prevent them from learning any bad habits and once the kid has progressed enough we'd start messing around with different kinds of dynamic turns and such. shoulders have a lot less to do with turns then you might think but there are still situations where it is appropriate

also i dont necessarily teach them NOT to move their shoulders at all but more so to keep them generally above their board as to keep your weight over their board instead of over the snow throwing them off balance slightly in turns. no matter what your shoulders tend to follow through with the turn but that doesnt mean you cant keep then stacked over your board for better weight distribution or that its your shoulders thats initiating the turn.

 

Okay, that's what I was wondering.

When I ride, I do keep my shoulders squared. However, when I'm on steeper terrains and need to make a quick and tight turn to avoid an obstacle that I saw too late, I do in fact use my upper body. Also, there are times where I will dig my fists into the snow for toe side turning, but that's more for fun than anything :laugh:

I also use my upper body in mogul fields. I use the method Snowolf posted some time ago, "hop turning". I do have to use my hips in that situation because I have to purposely lift the tail of my board and use my shoulders/hips to turn the board tightly.

But I totally understand why it is important that beginners learn to keep their shoulders squared and start with the feet.

 

You guys are all granpa's

I steer my board using my psychic telekinesis and I avoid running into noobs bwith my clairvoyance and ESP.

 

Your Aura is Purple!!!!!

 

Nice explanation Snowolf (as always on these matters).

In my defense, I don't ever exclusively use my upper body even in moguls. Always lower body first, but I do put my upper body into play because either I don't know any better, or I just can't navigate moguls without the help of upper body.

On the deeper carving note, I'm going to pay close attention next season to my carving. I want to see if I'm using any upper body. I hope not after reading your post

 

Hey thanks Snowolf.

Oops, didn't really think about what I was asking with the carving on steeps

Is the term "cross under" used in your lingo? The reason I ask, and one of the underlying reasons for the whole thread, is that I've seen some good "riding" instruction in dvd called Go Snowboard. It covers the foot steering approach, and in my opinion has some excellent exercises/drills for learning to carve...

Toward the end, they move onto the "cross under technique", which they advise for use on steep slopes, to control the riders speed. The board crosses under the riders body. You kinda need to see it, a text description won't work well, but the rider kind of dynamically pops to change to the next edge, and before the pop, they've carved the board around to a slight uphill direction.

(bad explanation, sorry)

I've tried the technique, and found it really hard.

In the video, I wouldn't say the terrain they're showing it on is that steep...

So what my question should have been, rather than asking to see someone carve on steep terrain, is:

- I'd like to see someone ride steep terrain with the correct technique -

You referred to "dynamic skidded terms" - I'd like to get better at that

thanks again for the input,

Gavin

 

Crossunders have a bit of timing thing to coordinate, i.e., so at the extension...pushing out, at the apex then instead of rising your body you use the snap or recoil of the board and you suck your knees up/in to shift the the next edge. You should be comfortable at doing cross overs and going at good speed; having your shoulders aligned to the fall line and then just shifting your hips, suck your knees and extend your legs. There's not that much foot work except to fine tune or subtle to hold carves...like to get that extra bit of bite on heel edge, raise your toes in your boots.

 

The only time I can think that I consciously twist the board (foot pedal?) is perhaps during very slow speeds to help initiate a skidded turn when I have no momentum going. It comes as a reflex thing once in a while too, if I'm going very slow and catch an edge. A twist / egde pickup releases the edge and saves a fall.

In general, turn initiation should come from the lower body. Snowolf talks about cross overs and cross unders. In use, cross overs IMO lend themselves more to open ended fall line carving on gentler runs, since they're too slow edge to edge for steeper runs unless you make full C-shapes carves and run them out across the fall line slow down across the transition, which isn't ideal or exactly elegant. Cross unders work better for full larger radius carves and higher speeds. Cross throughs, where you push off/extend just before the apex of the turn and suck in through the transition are more dynamic and give you more control at speed. They can also really give you some pop from edge to edge, when you're carving more down the fall line (less full "C"). Since your load the board so heavily and allow it to release quickly, you get a momentary weightless feel in the transition. It's not uncommon to get air time, too, and at times you have to watch not to vault yourself into the trees.

High edge angles (ie; inclination) provide more bite and less tendency to wash out a carve. Except in good snow, where you can use all board inclination and lay your body out in the snow (ala extreme carving), you'll angulate your body as well to keep your center of mass over the board. On slower runs, it's harder to get a high edge angle and your resulting angulation will come more from bending the knees since you just don't build the centifugal force to hold you up. At higher speeds, the anglulation moves up to your hips. These high edge angles at speed generate tremendous centrifugal force and can bend stiff boards with 15-16 m sidecuts into amazingly tight carves.

Here's some carving on varied pitches, starting with black, then blue, then green. In one of the beginning clips, you can see the edge snap or "pop" during the edge to edge transition. You can get an idea on edge angles and angulation as well. In the ending clips, the board just can't get going fast enough on the green runs to really open up and perform at it's best. In the second video, you can see the extreme pop you can get if you load the board a little "too" much.

YouTube - Carving
YouTube - Snowboard Vault

 

Snowolf, Is the board twist (called pedal?) something currently being taught by AASI? With the exception of a couple of recent training sessions with coaches, I haven't had a formal lesson in 20 years. I still try to keep my pulse on the latest technique, but don't recall it being taught then, nor in the last few years with my wife and kid's lessons. Seems like an intro stepping stone, perhaps, but unnecessary as speed develops and momentum carries you through the (skidded) turn.

But, you're right. I've always been a freecarver at heart and generally don't ride skidded turns unless conditions warrant, even back in the day in my softie Burton Comps.

 

While in the topic of steering/carving, I would like to ask what Snowolf and others think about this carving technique.

YouTube - 2009 FREECS PV
YouTube - 2010?JOINT 008 NEWWORLD?terser...from potentialfilm

It seems that they're shoulder are more opened up when carving (maybe this is due to the stance angles?) and also they bend/crouched at the waist during toeside turns? What do you guys think?

 

While in the topic of steering/carving, I would like to ask what Snowolf and others think about this carving technique.

I think they look like they're having a blast. And I think winter needs to get here quicker.

 

Snowolf, OK, so it sounds like AASI stresses that on the intro level. I get that since it helps the nose to bite/engage when there's no real speed going "to get you going". That's kind of long gone out the window though at full tilt boogie, though.

Skip, Those guys look like they're having fun and killing it. I don't think their technique is so much about a bent waist than it is about maintaining a low center of gravity and being forced to really drive the knees (toe edge) and drop the hips (heel) in order to get the board on high edge since their soft boots have so much fore/aft play before they translate well to the board. (ie; They have to really work it to tilt the board so much higher than during general skidded turns or "light" carving. Nice riding, and good to see the soft booters digging trenches.

 

@Snowwolf, AAA, Donutz: So if you're riding dynamically like that, it's fine for the shoulder not to be parallel with the board/front foot?

and yeah, they look like they're having so much fun and killin it diggin those deep trenches. Actually this is my favorite type of riding after powder just because I don't see make a real nice good carve and it feels good

 

@Snowwolf, AAA, Donutz: So if you're riding dynamically like that, it's fine for the shoulder not to be parallel with the board/front foot?

Hey, I'm a relative newb, so I defer to Snowolf on questions of form. However, I took a private lesson last season (after about a season of self-taught boarding) and got myself corrected on a couple of bad habits, including a habit of turning to face down the slope instead of keeping my shoulders parallel to the board. Correcting that made a big difference.

 

Wow, thanks Snowolf for all that info, and thanks for the videos also, together, I totally understand what you're saying

I'd love to be able to show you one of the examples from the Go Snowboard dvd. It's quite unique. I've not been able to find any clips on youtube though...

Thanks again!
Gavin